Valkyrie-type Battlestars in the Cylon War

The Cylons have rebelled. The alliance of the Twelve Colonies falters. Take control of the Colonial Fleet and save humanity from an endless war.
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Commander Scott
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Valkyrie-type Battlestars in the Cylon War

Post by Commander Scott » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:43 pm

I’ve seen much made of the idea that the Valkyrie-type battlestar shouldn’t be added to Deadlock due to it being misused in the Blood & Chrome miniseries, but whilst I was binge-watching Caprica yesterday, I spotted two of them outside the Caprica City Interplanetary Spaceport in the episode Retribution. This serves to establish Valkyrie as a pre-war design, likely under the auspices of the Caprican Legionnaires at the time of this episode.

Image
- Apologies for the image quality, as I’m unable to capture high res images directly from my blu rays -

Of course, this raises an interesting question as to why Bulldog would deem Valkyrie to be a more prestigious assignment than Galactica when he joins the fleet in season 3, since this makes her class at least six years older than the Jupiter.

I therefore posit a theory that this is because Valkyrie was designed with the advanced technology of the day in mind, and without the pressures of war, actually built to the specs set forth in the design, something we know wasn’t true of Galactica. Valkyrie then would not only be better built, but also much easier to retrofit as Colonial technology advanced to pre-war levels prior to the fall. This is an important factor to be considered; given these are a people who had grown so complacent as to inadvertently facilitate their own annihilation.

This means that the dev team, if they choose to in the future, can safely add Valkyrie to the game without contradicting anything shown in either of the TV series. It also means re-evaluating the widespread assumption that Valkyrie was contemporary to the Mercury-class, despite the CGI team using vastly different exterior markings to the ones used for Galactica and Pegasus.
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Re: Valkyrie-type Battlestars in the Cylon War

Post by fisher2000 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:54 pm

I wouldn't mind the Asgard class pre-war (first variant of the Valkyrie.) Having the Valkyrie Class pre-war literally leaves one class, the Mercery class that we know is post war.

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Re: Valkyrie-type Battlestars in the Cylon War

Post by Commander Scott » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:53 pm

Asgard-class? I’m afraid I’m not familiar with the name.

To be honest, I don’t see any real differences between the CGI model in Hero, and the one in Razor and The Plan, other than different lighting and camera angles... unless you're referring to the ones with the roll bar at Scorpia? The surface details seem to be about the same in all three appearances as well.

The Mercury-class is an interesting one. We know from Cain’s comments about Galactica being a classic that Pegasus specifically is much newer, but we also know the Colonial Fleet went into decline without the Cylons to keep them on their toes. In addition, thanks to the game, we’ve already seen battlestars move towards the Mercury-class design ethos with the Minerva, and we’re still in the early days of the war. Whilst I don’t expect to ever see a Mercury-class ship in the Deadlock campaign, it certainly wouldn’t surprise me if it was alluded to if the story goes all the way through to the armistice.
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Re: Valkyrie-type Battlestars in the Cylon War

Post by fisher2000 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:06 pm

The Asgard class is more of a fan associated name for the vessel shown in "Hero". IIRC, the Asgard has less refined features as well as its overall length. There is a mod in which the Asgard Class is used and it fits perfectly.

The Valkyrie fits perfect for its current place in time. It is built to a cost, has flaws (exposed FTL drive) and is the main work horse of the Modern day colonial fleet. I don't feel it fits well at all in B&C as well as Caprica, It would make more sense having a precursor.

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Re: Valkyrie-type Battlestars in the Cylon War

Post by Commander Scott » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:41 pm

I honestly don’t see much difference outside of the quality of the effects shots, which I'm sure one of the producers said was a problem after going over budget on the CGI they needed for the Battle of New Caprica.

I’m also not sure how you’ve determined Valkyrie’s role in the fleet to be honest with you. In its three appearances in BSG, one was a stealth operation assigned to Commander Adama rather than the ship itself. The second put two ships in the shipyards at Scorpia undergoing some kind of refit that may have included a roll bar, whilst the third had three of them in orbit of Caprica meeting the Cylon threat. Three appearances, two operational roles.

Other differences to note in our admittedly small sample of battlestar designs are Valkyrie’s nonstandard markings on the topside and runways, open engine nacelles with closable baffle plates and exposed machinery believed to include the FTL drive on the underside. When compared to the particulars of Galactica and Pegasus, all of these can be ascribed to an old design like Caprica and Blood & Chrome have established the Valkyrie-type to be, especially with us having the Berzerk-class in the game, a ship with similarly exposed machinery that was also a post war design until it wasn’t.
Last edited by Commander Scott on Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Valkyrie-type Battlestars in the Cylon War

Post by fisher2000 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:00 pm

B&C reused a lot of visual assets (because it was cheaper) for this caused issues with the viper mkIII not being able to fit in to the launch tubes due to the size, The viper rack (cool idea) are so big they would stick out of the flight pods, the Valkyrie in the end credit scene as well as the ghost fleet and the massive over sizing of the Defender class. For these reasons I think B&C should be classed as semi-canon. All the good things stay and all the bad go.

The Valkyrie fits the post-war colonial fleet doctrine; Build fast, build cheap, build small.
Because of this doctrine the Valkyrie faced many issues. Smaller squadrons, less point defence weapons and the FTL drive exposed on the belly of the ship. A ship to be older than the Jupiter class, but more advanced and still being on active service (on a highly sensitive mission) after the war doesn't make much sense.

The Valkyrie also seems like a ship between the Jupiter and the Mercury class; some systems are modern and updated while retaining the feel of closed-circuit systems such as corded phones.

Adding the Valkyrie in the game during the first war would be robbing us of the stance the vessel is portrayed in the fleet of the post-war era.

Good catch on the Valkyrie in the Caprica show. I think this is just an easter egg. If you look on the spine of the ship the colonial seal is shown. IIRC, the seal represents the 12 colonies of kobol, but we know from the lore that the colonial fleet didn't exist during this time period.

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Re: Valkyrie-type Battlestars in the Cylon War

Post by BossDos » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:31 pm

Well a Valkyrie doesnt make much sense in the first cyclon, while there is a Battlestar called Valkyrie in the First Cylon war, it is known, that some ships got the same name.
For instance the Battlestar Columbia, which got Destroyed in Operation Eagle Talon, later we got a new Battlestar with the name.

The role for the Valkyrie, being more or less a destroyer, then an actual Battlestar, with his highly aggressive Weapon placement, the number of missile tubes and the vulnerability because it lacked high-density armor like the Jupiter is taken in Deadlock by the Minerva-class.
Which shares a similarity in design to both the Mercuries and Valkyries, because it's probably the predecessor of both.

Perhaps the Valkyrie we saw in the Ghostfleet was actually the Valkyrie, a Minerva-class battlestar. Ships in Wartimes get refitted alot, and perhaps the later Valkyrie-class Battlestars originated from the refitted Minerva calles Valkyrie.

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Re: Valkyrie-type Battlestars in the Cylon War

Post by Victor_shaw » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:42 am

First let me start by saying that I have heard almost every reason for why B&C is bad and should be non-canon.
Most of them show personal bias or lack of understanding about navy ship procurement and service life.

"Why would it be a down grade for Adam to be posted for the Valkyrie to the Galactica?"
Well assuming the Valkyrie is from the first war lets look at the two ships.

Galactica
Good
1. A first cylon war ship.
2. Highly decorated vassal.
Bad
1. In the reserve fleet (non active duty)
2. About to be retired and turned into a museum.
3. Carry little or no ordinance do to retirement.
4. Had not been updated since the Cylon war outside of new vipers.
5. relic of a past the Colonies were trying to forget.

Valkyrie
Good
1. A first cylon war ship.
2. Highly decorated vassal.
3. Updated with the latest equipment.
4. Still an active duty Battlestar.
5. Part of the class that makes-up most of the Battlestar fleet.
Bad
1. Smaller then Galactic.

So he was on a active duty ship, that was the mainstay of the fleet. And from what you can put together from the series where the largest ships outside of the Mercury class on active duty.
Then he was transferred to a ship in the reserve fleet that was about to be retired and turned into a museum.
Anyone in the military would look at this as a demotion, or a more respectful discharge from service in his case.

"Why did the Valkyrie bridge look so advanced?"
This one is simple, upgrades. This is a standard practice in most navies.
Look at the USS Midway lunched in 1945 and retired in 1992
Image
Image

And yes these are both the same ship.

" The Valkyrie looks like a post war design."
Maybe to you, but to me it looks like a less advanced design then the Galactica/Columbia/Jupiter-class. (Not sure on the class name as I have heard nothing saying that BSGD is canon)
Reasons for my belief.
1. Valkyries exposed jump core shows an older design that had not yet overcome the obstacle of an embedded jump core.
2. Very boxy design that show me underdeveloped hull armor technology compared to the more angler design of Galactica and Pegasus.
3. As has been stated Valkyrie type ships Show up in Caprica

P.S. The Valkyrie seems to fill the role of a Battlecruiser in the Colonial Fleet, not a destroyer.

"Why does the Galactica's CIC and launch bays seemed to be much more highly advanced and automated early in the war?"
1. So here I assume they were retrograded do to the cylon network infiltration tech later in the war.
2. We don't see the Galactica again until it is about to be retired and turned into a museum so we have no bases to just how it should look when it was fully active.

Overall I see no issues with B&C.

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Re: Valkyrie-type Battlestars in the Cylon War

Post by fisher2000 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:30 pm

Victor_shaw wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:42 am
First let me start by saying that I have heard almost every reason for why B&C is bad and should be non-canon.
Most of them show personal bias or lack of understanding about navy ship procurement and service life.

"Why would it be a down grade for Adam to be posted for the Valkyrie to the Galactica?"
Well assuming the Valkyrie is from the first war lets look at the two ships.

Galactica
Good
1. A first cylon war ship.
2. Highly decorated vassal.
Bad
1. In the reserve fleet (non active duty)
2. About to be retired and turned into a museum.
3. Carry little or no ordinance do to retirement.
4. Had not been updated since the Cylon war outside of new vipers.
5. relic of a past the Colonies were trying to forget.

Valkyrie
Good
1. A first cylon war ship.
2. Highly decorated vassal.
3. Updated with the latest equipment.
4. Still an active duty Battlestar.
5. Part of the class that makes-up most of the Battlestar fleet.
Bad
1. Smaller then Galactic.

So he was on a active duty ship, that was the mainstay of the fleet. And from what you can put together from the series where the largest ships outside of the Mercury class on active duty.
Then he was transferred to a ship in the reserve fleet that was about to be retired and turned into a museum.
Anyone in the military would look at this as a demotion, or a more respectful discharge from service in his case.

"Why did the Valkyrie bridge look so advanced?"
This one is simple, upgrades. This is a standard practice in most navies.
Look at the USS Midway lunched in 1945 and retired in 1992
Image
Image

And yes these are both the same ship.

" The Valkyrie looks like a post war design."
Maybe to you, but to me it looks like a less advanced design then the Galactica/Columbia/Jupiter-class. (Not sure on the class name as I have heard nothing saying that BSGD is canon)
Reasons for my belief.
1. Valkyries exposed jump core shows an older design that had not yet overcome the obstacle of an embedded jump core.
2. Very boxy design that show me underdeveloped hull armor technology compared to the more angler design of Galactica and Pegasus.
3. As has been stated Valkyrie type ships Show up in Caprica

P.S. The Valkyrie seems to fill the role of a Battlecruiser in the Colonial Fleet, not a destroyer.

"Why does the Galactica's CIC and launch bays seemed to be much more highly advanced and automated early in the war?"
1. So here I assume they were retrograded do to the cylon network infiltration tech later in the war.
2. We don't see the Galactica again until it is about to be retired and turned into a museum so we have no bases to just how it should look when it was fully active.

Overall I see no issues with B&C.
As I have stated before, I believe that the Valkyrie class showing up in the caprica series, should be considered an easter egg. The reason I state this is for the following;

- The Valkyrie shows the colonial seal on the spine of the ship. From all the lore that we have seen, the colonial seal was established after the articles of colonization was signed (during the start of the first war)
- This is the only instance of the Valkyrie shown in a planetary atmosphere. No indication that the vessel has this ability in the past, granted we know very little about the ship.

I stick to my previous post about the fleet doctrine post cylon war. The Valkyrie fits perfect. Build small, build quick, build cheap = exposed FTL drive, lack of Point defence guns, squadrons and a transitional phase between first war tech and second war tech. https://i.redd.it/7t19yf28ujby.jpg

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=78508 - Please see this thread. The poster has images of the original design plan of the Valkyrie, to solve the lore inconsistency issues, I really think this should be the first war variant.

To your comment "We don't see the Galactica again until it is about to be retired and turned into a museum, so we have no bases to just how it should look when it was fully active." We have seen the Galactica & Columbia in the first war fully armoured in the Razor flashback scenes. Although the scenes are quick, it's clear that they are no the same variant as the show.

"Overall I see no issues with B&C."

I would not say that I have a problem with the tv movie, I would say that it does a lot of things against already established lore, and only contributes a little to the overall narrative. The mkIII variant looks amazing (needs to be a little smaller to actually fit in the Galactica's launch tube) I believe that going forward it should be considered semi-canon. Semi-canon would mean that the IP holder has the freedom to use references from the movie I.E the raptor which is used in BSG: Deadlock, and not have to worry about making a point about everything that happened. See fallout tactics for further information.

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Re: Valkyrie-type Battlestars in the Cylon War

Post by Commander Scott » Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:48 pm

The image with the Colonial Seal is fan made, Fisher, just like the one of the model that "looks off," which was made by Infinity238 shortly after the episode Hero first aired. As you'll see in the images below, the Colonial Seal is absolutely nowhere to be found on the model that was used in the show. Also, in respect to atmospheric flight, Valkyrie’s engines do have air intakes, just like the vipers.

- All images courtesy of the Battlestar Wiki Clone -

Image Image Image Image Image Image
- Valkyrie In Hero and The Plan -

Image Image Image
- Valkyrie Filming Model -
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Re: Valkyrie-type Battlestars in the Cylon War

Post by Asap » Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:58 pm

It would be really nice to have Valkyrie-type Battlestars in the game. :)
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Re: Valkyrie-type Battlestars in the Cylon War

Post by Rickmann » Mon May 20, 2019 1:33 pm

Hello everybody

I know this is not the place for this question, but I really could use your help.

Where can I see the Blood & Chrome miniseries? I have already looked everywhere, but nothing!!!

Help

Thanks

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Re: Valkyrie-type Battlestars in the Cylon War

Post by Victor_shaw » Tue May 28, 2019 11:38 am

Only answer I can give is buy the blu-ray.
Have not seen it anywhere else for awhile.

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