Unit and unit types review

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VoidDragon
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Unit and unit types review

Post by VoidDragon » Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:01 pm

First, a bit about myself, to put things into perspective. I am a pretty casual player, and all my games were on a Normal level. Most of them were with huge amount of points left, but there were a few times when I was without points at all (last moves on Last Stand at Acheron). This is a casual player perspective and thoughts. Also, I am quite a bit of lore-lover and can't play all-heavy regiments or something lore-wise stupid like this. I try to use combined arms approach.
Of course, I haven't yet tried ALL units, so I am writing about those I played and observed. I'll expand this topic when I'll try enough.

Infantry - they aren't so useless as some claim them to be, but they ARE fragile, and you can kiss experience goodbye - you won't be getting elite infantry in this game (yes, even Spaaaaace Mehriiiiins). They can fight their own kind, they can be pretty tough in cover and they make great bullet sponges. Damage-like... they aren't too good. Assault is great on some units, but they lack the greatest defence - range between them and the enemy, as do all others.

Tanks - Kings of War... or do they? They pack great firepower and defence, but there is HUGE amount of anti-tank weaponry, and it is going to be pointed at your tanks sometimes. Then you'll observe your tanks melting and burning just like the infantry... and there is surprise: they are MUCH more expensive, and it hurts to lose experience. Also, they lose their combat capabilites faster.

Artillery - again, they aren't Kings of War, and I like it. They can fire from afar, and safely amass experience, but in Acts 2 and 3 they aren't deal as much damage as they used to. They are still great for softening the enemy and draining his morale to permit tanks and infantry to strike without retaliation, but they aren't decisive power, unlike...

Titans - yeah, they ARE the Kings of War. Thickest armor, biggest guns, decent move - what else would you want from unit? I totally understand people who play nothing but Titans, and lore-wise, Titan Legions are the most dangerous military unit in Imperium. The only setback is what you can't repair them in-mission. If, by sheer luck, enemy would hurt your Titan so you remove him from combat fearing for his life - that's it, he is done for mission.

Vehicles and Walkers - too different from each other to say something about the type.

Steel Legion Infantry - Cannon fodder. Bullet sponge. Really, they are. Even aganist their own type, they suck - Orks have bigger squads, better weapons and generally more numerous. With core slots, you can't drown Orks in human bodies (at least, without leaving at least some artillery and tanks), so they die for the Emperor.
But in this role, they are great. 190 points, or 250 to restore my tanks and lose their hard-won experience? The choice is clear. They are also best scouts in game. Just send them forward.

Steel Legion Conscripts - even better at cannon fodder role, but their mobility sucks and giving them a Chimera seems such a waste... But in rare defensive missions, they are brilliant.

Steel Legion Command - cheap assault, which becomes obsolete after appearence of Assault Marines, Dreadnoughts and alike. Morale boost, yeah, but what requires too much positioning pain for me.

Steel Legion Specials (Flamers, Heavy Weapons, Mortar, Anti-Tank) - they are too expensive! With Chimera (without which they are too slow) they cost as much as some tanks, without their armor and durability and being equal with them in firepower. After 6 or 7 lost I just stopped buying them.

Ratling Snipers - best infantry, for me. Great spotting, great move, great firepower... The only problem is that you can't realy use them to scout, because, you know, no scout move and sudden death from 10000 guns which finally found some target. But overall great, and only infantry unit, which can amass experience (alas, not in my hands... still die in ambush).

Hive Militia - joke units. But I wish to make Hades defence scenario with them as main unit. That would be fun.

Sentinels - should be scouts, but no scout move... so they die. Don't waste your points on them.

Tauros - ehhh...

Salamander Scouts - everyone sings praise to that one, so I'll abstain. They are good.

Hellhound and variants - quite interesting unit, which can sometimes utterly decimate infantry units. But your main problem in games aren't those.

Leman Russ - you will use some of those. They're cheap (compared to super-heavies, of course), pack a firepower and mobile. But they aren't too durable - you should screen them from super-heavies and thick enemy fire with your infantry. Variants I tried:
Standart - too little firepower to handle armored units, and no bolters to deal with infantry. Move on.
Ungraded - sudden jump in cost. 175 points for two heavy bolters? For 50-100 points more you can have advanced versions, and they much more efficient. Move on...
Annihilator - my personal favorite. Lascannons have AP, while Battle Cannon haven't, and you have your bolters. This one can take on anything his size and come out victorious. Just don't use him too much; reinforcements aren't cheap.
Executioner - should be useful, but somehow his Plasma Destroyer wasn't as destructive in my hands.
Punisher - really useful aganist light infantry outside of cover; useless otherwise. You won't be dealing with infantry as much in later acts, there this one appears.
Vanquisher - good one because of range, which makes him almost piece of artillery. Haven't used him that much, but he was good.

Baneblade - super-heavy tank of choice. Destroys almost everything in range of 2: infantry, tanks, even light titans suffer.
Shadowsword - Volcano Cannon is fine, but it lacks Demolisher Cannon of Baneblade and overall his performance seems worse for me than Baneblade.
Stormblade - Plasma Blastgun isn't really better than Baneblade Cannon, and I have it already on Warhound Titans.
(Really should try Banesword. Seems like overpriced piece of artillery to me, but who knows?).

Basilisk - Hail! Best artillery piece, if you ask me (Wyvern and Griffon are inferior, Bombard lacks bolters, have worse range and isn't really more effective aganist primary target, Medusa isn't indirect). In Act 1, it is ultimate weapon aganist infantry and light armor. Later, it isn't as decisive, but still very good to have aganist infantry. Can safely amass experience, so isn't going to miss after some time.
Deathstrike - Expensive, but wouldn't you give points for ability to damage titans and super-heavies without retaliation? Gives your force an invaluable advantage in fight aganist most dangerous enemies.

Aircraft - Useless. Too expensive, too easy to shot down.

Warhound - One true scout in this game, because he can endure almost all fire from spotted units. Fast and furious, effective aganist everything.
Reaver - Most powerful unit in the game.

Plaid
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Re: Unit and unit types review

Post by Plaid » Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:34 pm

Thats some strange feedback, what difficulty setting are you playing?

I play challenging and have quite the opposite feedback.

Had few 8-10 stars Imperial guard riflemen and Mortar Support units in the middle of Act II, why you say I will not be getting elite infantry?

Image


Guardsmen win vs ranged ork squads (if melee does not happen) because they have higher initiative and accuracy. 2 guardsmen units will kill even armored Nobs. Veteran guardsmen can also win melee engagements (by killing many orks in ranged round)

Mortar and Heavy Bolter units can cost as much as tanks, but they are much better than tanks aswell. They roll respectively 60 and 80 dice when attacking. Tank unit will roll like 15-30 dice only (depending on weapon setup). Mortar also have indirect.

Flamer infantry seems hard to use and they attract enemy fire because they can't fire back at all.

Most Leman Russ tanks are really bad because they can be damaged by small arms. If I want something, which is not immune to small arms fire, I would buy Salamander instead. Low defense, low hit-points, low squad size, low firepower. Why do they cost so much? Entire squad of guardsmen cost less than replacing one tank. So why use them? Guardsmen and light vehicles are much better vs infantry, Medusa and Destroyer are much better vs armour.

Hellhound and Devildog are good to some limit. Banewolf is not. Why bad version of Hellhound (less range and very low attack strength) is more expensive than normal one?

Aircraft useless indeed.

VoidDragon
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Re: Unit and unit types review

Post by VoidDragon » Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:04 pm

Plaid wrote:Thats some strange feedback, what difficulty setting are you playing?
and all my games were on a Normal level
Plaid wrote:Had few 8-10 stars Imperial guard riflemen and Mortar Support units in the middle of Act II, why you say I will not be getting elite infantry?
Umm... that mission is middle of Act I. In Act II fire pressure is too tight in close combat.
Plaid wrote:2 guardsmen units will kill even armored Nobs.
Never, ever saw any infantry units able to do that. Even regualar Space Marines suck aganist them.
Plaid wrote:Mortar and Heavy Bolter units can cost as much as tanks, but they are much better than tanks aswell. They roll respectively 60 and 80 dice when attacking.
It doesn't matter much when entire ork army shoots back to them. They die too fast.
Plaid wrote:Most Leman Russ tanks are really bad because they can be damaged by small arms.
Not really. They can be damaged, but if there is squisher target nearby, AI will target it. Never saw normal tanks being killed by small arms.
Plaid wrote:Entire squad of guardsmen cost less than replacing one tank. So why use them?
Because Guardsmen can't fire lascannons and heavy bolters.
Plaid wrote:Guardsmen and light vehicles are much better vs infantry, Medusa and Destroyer are much better vs armour.
Can't agree with first part, haven't tried second one.

Garrotta
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Re: Unit and unit types review

Post by Garrotta » Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:31 pm

Deffo Salamander

Leman Russ tanks get knocked out too easy lol but as said it depends on your diff setting
Now imagine me in the Maginot Line
Sitting on a mine in the Maginot Line

Bersercker
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Re: Unit and unit types review

Post by Bersercker » Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:44 pm

VoidDragon wrote: Titans - yeah, they ARE the Kings of War. Thickest armor, biggest guns, decent move - what else would you want from unit? I totally understand people who play nothing but Titans, and lore-wise, Titan Legions are the most dangerous military unit in Imperium. The only setback is what you can't repair them in-mission. If, by sheer luck, enemy would hurt your Titan so you remove him from combat fearing for his life - that's it, he is done for mission.
Actually, you can repair them using rest&refit, they'll restore 1 hp that way.

Also, furioso dreadnought's are really good at clearing out infantry while taking almost no damage in return since they have great armor.

On infantry: sanguinary guard and firedrakes are really good, was playing on very hard and it seemed impossible to win without them on some maps. Also terminators and centurions are good in defensive missions.

In multiplayer though it seems the opposite to campaign (because you don't care if you lost all army in the end but still won). Most tanks and artillery are too expensive, slow and deal too low damage for their cost compared to infantry, since human opponent won't be shy to attack them unlike the ai. The titans are even more crappy in that regard.

TShirtFlashlight
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Re: Unit and unit types review

Post by TShirtFlashlight » Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:11 am

Plaid wrote:Thats some strange feedback, what difficulty setting are you playing?

I play challenging and have quite the opposite feedback.

Had few 8-10 stars Imperial guard riflemen and Mortar Support units in the middle of Act II, why you say I will not be getting elite infantry?
What tactics do you use with Riflemen until they lived that long ? The only Steel Legion infantry units I can get to elite status are the Ratling Snipers (Range 4 not much retaliation) and Mortar Support (always made sure there is no line of sight to Orks when attacking).

My Riflemen can be considered very lucky if they managed to live past turn 3 of a major engagement.

Plaid
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Re: Unit and unit types review

Post by Plaid » Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:35 am

TShirtFlashlight wrote:
What tactics do you use with Riflemen until they lived that long ? The only Steel Legion infantry units I can get to elite status are the Ratling Snipers (Range 4 not much retaliation) and Mortar Support (always made sure there is no line of sight to Orks when attacking).

My Riflemen can be considered very lucky if they managed to live past turn 3 of a major engagement.
I have 5 Riflemen units by the time I finish tutorial (with no transports). I just send them forward and always repair as soon as they get below 25. Some units die indeed and I replace them, others grow elite. Its quite random. Destroying enemy artillery gives you high experience with low risk for example.
In defensive missions take position in a trench and also repair as often as possible.

Guardsmen are effective vs ork boyz and since those are rare later in the game it is little reason to keep using guards when space marines are availiable. I upgrade my most elite guardsmen squads into mortars and disband ones with low experience after Acheron Defense mission.

Same is true for Salamanders. Sometimes they die fast, sometimes they reach maximum experience and I upgrade them into devildog/hellhound.

That works only for act I and first missions of act 2. Later on anything armored lighter than upgraded baneblade tank will attract attacks from entire ork horde and will not last long.

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Re: Unit and unit types review

Post by VoidDragon » Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:50 am

Bersercker wrote:Actually, you can repair them using rest&refit, they'll restore 1 hp that way.
That's too slow...

TShirtFlashlight
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Re: Unit and unit types review

Post by TShirtFlashlight » Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:28 am

Plaid wrote: Guardsmen are effective vs ork boyz and since those are rare later in the game it is little reason to keep using guards when space marines are availiable. I upgrade my most elite guardsmen squads into mortars and disband ones with low experience after Acheron Defense mission.

Same is true for Salamanders. Sometimes they die fast, sometimes they reach maximum experience and I upgrade them into devildog/hellhound.

That works only for act I and first missions of act 2. Later on anything armored lighter than upgraded baneblade tank will attract attacks from entire ork horde and will not last long.
I should have clarified I am looking for effective Riflemen tactics for Act 2 beyond .. guess they are only good at being Shoota magnets after Act 1 is done. It will be really impressive if someone can keep Rifleman squads alive and with full EXP till end of the campaign. (changing to Mortar/Sniper loadout does not count) .

How did your 2 elite Riflemen squads survive the final mission of Act 1? (the one where you hold out until Space Marine reinforcements save the day). I lost most of my veteran Riflemen & Heavy Bolter support squads holding the line on that mission. :(
VoidDragon wrote:That's too slow...
You could rest them after they have taken out major threats.. leave the infantry and normal tanks mop up to the grunts.

Plaid
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Re: Unit and unit types review

Post by Plaid » Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:28 pm

TShirtFlashlight wrote:
I should have clarified I am looking for effective Riflemen tactics for Act 2 beyond .. guess they are only good at being Shoota magnets after Act 1 is done. It will be really impressive if someone can keep Rifleman squads alive and with full EXP till end of the campaign. (changing to Mortar/Sniper loadout does not count) .

How did your 2 elite Riflemen squads survive the final mission of Act 1? (the one where you hold out until Space Marine reinforcements save the day). I lost most of my veteran Riflemen & Heavy Bolter support squads holding the line on that mission. :(
Keeping that unit in reserve pool or in the corner of the field far from action also does not count? They are just to weak compared to what you face there. Even most types of space marines are to weak.

Most of my units survive final mission of Act 1. Only tanks holding bridges are getting destroyed sometimes. Infantry in fortifications is safe as long as bridges are locked. If you let orks to cross the bridges you will be in trouble, but should not happen. Just buy some cheap tank (Leman Russ armour upgrade fits perfectly) and place it to block the bridge instead of destroyed one.

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Re: Unit and unit types review

Post by TShirtFlashlight » Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:05 pm

Plaid wrote:Keeping that unit in reserve pool or in the corner of the field far from action also does not count?
Well think of what the other squads in the army will say.. "Bloody commander's pet, sitting away from the frontlines enjoying a cup of tanna while we bleed in combat.." Besides, Commisar Faldrak will greatly disapprove. :wink:

Plaid wrote:Most of my units survive final mission of Act 1. Only tanks holding bridges are getting destroyed sometimes. Infantry in fortifications is safe as long as bridges are locked. If you let orks to cross the bridges you will be in trouble, but should not happen. Just buy some cheap tank (Leman Russ armour upgrade fits perfectly) and place it to block the bridge instead of destroyed one.
I see .. in my playthrough I let the Orks cross the bridge into the hex beside the fortifications where they will be in range of my tanks and other artillery units. And the first thing the Orks always shoot at are those poor guys in the fortifications. Interesting strat though .. might try it out in my next playthrough. Thanks for sharing. :)

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Re: Unit and unit types review

Post by VoidDragon » Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:08 pm

VoidDragon wrote:That's too slow...
TShirtFlashlight wrote:You could rest them after they have taken out major threats.. leave the infantry and normal tanks mop up to the grunts.
I could, yes... but their firepower is just too good to be left behind. Besides, nobody ever fire on them, so my Reavers are marching alongside with infantry and support them with full force.
Just buy some cheap tank (Leman Russ armour upgrade fits perfectly) and place it to block the bridge instead of destroyed one.
I prefer to use conscripts. One unit of conscripts perfectly holds the bridge until SM shows and steal all the glory. Cheaper.

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Re: Unit and unit types review

Post by Dayta » Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:53 am

Kinda disagree with a lot of your sentiments in the OP.

Infantry-They're probably the most cost effective solutions to near everything. I've been doing an Ultramarine only playthrough, and terminators+grav gun units have been incredibly useful for killing things I'd usually leave to superheavies. In the standard steel legion units any support unit are very useful. Ever since the buff the AT support squad kills stompas fairly easily. In cover they can trade almost 1v1 with gargants. Biggest problem is usually accumulating exp (due to losses if spotted+focused) and speed (fixed by chimera if wanted).

Tanks-Leman Russ units are rather lackluster due to cost/effectiveness ratio, but still are handy (to better fit w/ lore probably should be buffed to 4hp/model). Superheavies have very nice durability, but trade firepower for it, and so while more impressive actually tend to do less damage per attack. Normal space marine armor is very effective but very expensive. The have much higher firepower and toughness compared to leman russ units due to higher HP and unit strength. Land raiders are also very useful, as they get enough defense that they can take a hit, and they can be specialized, so they don't lose out that much firepower because of lower unit strength.

Artillery-Pretty much agree with you, lowering moral and softening targets is their main use later on, but having 3 or so is still very useful.

Titans-They're great, but mainly in single player. Also rest and refit serve a very important purpose so that their shooting is still effective later on, especially in Act 3 missions were titans will often do heavy lifting. That said, they're half as effective when attacked (because they have a 2x shot modifier when they attack units) so when tank busta or kill busta units show up, they tend to suffer.

Vehicles-Mainly a source for scouts. These vehicles are specialized for taking out a specific type of threat pretty much, but the Salamander scout is pretty amazing in the majority or circumstances. The tend to get overshadowed in the latter 2 acts but still can prove handy.

Walkers-Steel Legion ones are pretty bad tbh, they're scouts but the Salamander does better under most conditions. The space marine dreadnoughts however are fantastic. Well worth their cost and prove their worth often. I love using these. Not as strong in multiplayer usually (mainly because cost effectiveness is not the best) but still usable.

Aircraft-I agree pretty much, they need their evasion buffed some.

The Gargant actually out does the Reaver last time I checked, it just needs to actually attack you rather than do nothing and let you kill it.

As for rest+refit, yes its not entirely needed, but it really does help. If nothing else use units that have the leadership trait to keep your titans in half decent shape (they restore 20 moral/turn), otherwise they can become rather ineffective at killing things. Doesn't show as much when at high veterancy, but still no reason not to.

For the Acheon Battle I've typically used infantry to hold north, supported by 2 tanks. Center usually sports my arty were they can help norh+center. Tanks supported by some infantry help there. The south always has turned the messiest for me, 3-4 armor units +2 infantry hold there, plus some other units from center/north as pressure slackens. I like to use the infantry as they're cheap and usually have the lowest exp among my units. I've actually held that mission for the 20 turns on normal. It was pretty hard, even with the superheavies you get to start with in scenarios, but steel legion at support actually make the moment when the stompas showed up rather anti-climatic. They walked across the river and then died. The skullhammas gave me a lot more trouble/losses.

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Re: Unit and unit types review

Post by redeyedjedi » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:50 am

Towards the end of my last playthrough I had a mix of Steel Legion and Blood Angels/Salamanders.

That buff they did on Captain Tycho made him BOSS. I had him rolling with a retinue of 3 Blood Angels Terminators w/assault cannon mounted in Land Raiders, a Blood Angel Command Squad, a unit of Sanguinaries, and 2 Tac squads w/grav gun. 2 units of Firedrakes mounted in Land Raiders for good measure.

Steel Legion I have to say superheavies were fun to have a long. I had I think 3 upgraded Baneblades, 2 upgraded Baneswords, and a Shadowsword. The low damage they delt was a little frustrating.. but if I ever needed to knock out entrenched infantry that's what the Blood Angels were for.. or my gods of war.

Speaking of Gods of war.. I had a core of 4 Reavers that eventually expanded to 8. Even if they get too low on health you can just have them stand back and rocket things.

I stopped using Steel Legion infantry the moment I could.

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Re: Unit and unit types review

Post by VoidDragon » Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:06 pm

Dayta wrote: Ever since the buff the AT support squad kills stompas fairly easily.
That's okay. Mine die every time armor much as look in their way, and constant repair hurts.

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Re: Unit and unit types review

Post by Dayta » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:36 pm

VoidDragon wrote: That's okay. Mine die every time armor much as look in their way, and constant repair hurts.
They last a while if in cover. Out of it they can die fast, but they don't die all that fast in my experience. If you're having trouble keeping them alive keep them out of the ai's sight until you need them. They're also only 250 req, so replacements are cheap and easy for normal. challenging its more of an issue if you use a lot of leman russ in the first act but not overly so. They also do decent vs infantry if needed due to out ranging most.

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Re: Unit and unit types review

Post by GenNikolaj » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:46 am

Well- I'm sitting in the middle of "Defending Tartarus's Industry" on Challenging, and I have quite a few observations about how absurdly units tend to behave:

First of all- Terminators. For a quick reminder- these are the guys Codexes describe as "possesing armor thick as a tank". And while they excel in destroying everything BIG (the Cyclone version can easly turn even a Stompa down to smoking ash)- they get massacred when facing infantry and heavy machingun fire, which shuldn't be even able to scratch their power armour.

Second thing- lascannons and melta, expectations and logic vs. reality. Maybe I didn't notice something, but a 30% armor piercing value is a bit low for weapons designed specifically to MELT through heavy machinery.

AA. Such powerful. Wow. So much meaning in terms of gameplay, where snipers for 245 can, with luck, instant-kill a flyer wing worth double the money.

Unique units. That's the most interesting one. Death Company Assault Squad has the same statistics as Vanguard Veterans, and yet is far cheaper. So why do Blood Angels have Vanguard Veterans, to start with? Than- Land Speeder Storm. What's the difference between him and the normal one? Well- besides the appearence- it's the same craft with same statistics, just 200 req more expensive. Guess Ultramarines don't know what do do with their money.

Vulcan Megabolter should reduce infantry and small vehicles to shreds. Well- it does not. It's nice to watch and nice to hear, but besides fire and smoke it deffinitely does not produce the bodycount it is supposed to.

And finally- Steel Legion Flamethrower Specialist. Since when you can't smoke Orks that are advancing on your position? And why the heck do they have the "assault" trait, if it doesn't EVER work?

Having said this much- the game is freaking awesome and I've already lost far too many hours playing it, enjoying the challenge every second, but all those tiny discrepancies are a true thorn in ones ass

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Re: Unit and unit types review

Post by Kimmy » Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:24 pm

GenNikolaj wrote:Second thing- lascannons and melta, expectations and logic vs. reality. Maybe I didn't notice something, but a 30% armor piercing value is a bit low for weapons designed specifically to MELT through heavy machinery.
Nikolaj, I once exclaimed the same confusion to the developers. How they explained it was that it's not just AP rating that makes something good against high-armor units, it's also the strength rating. They described it as there being "a bit of a dance going on between armor, attack strength and AP" or something. Feel free to take a look at this post viewtopic.php?f=235&t=54658&start=20#p510587

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Re: Unit and unit types review

Post by Bersercker » Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:33 am

Played some more multiplayer, and i now think titans are pretty much useless. 2 gargants lost heavily to 2 anti-tank supports in buildings while inflicting almost no losses (2-3 infantry per turn each) and warhound fell to 2 busta boyz squads in two turns not doing much in a way of damage either.

I think there is a way to not lose titans as imeprium if you cover them with moratrs and heavy bolters and preferably some infantry in the front too, but whats the point if they deal so little damage? Another mortar or antitank support in their place would have done much more and much cheaper.

As orks i dont belive its possible to keep them alive at all, since steel legion anti tank support doesn't need to go into melee to kill them and can do it form range 3. Also gargants are even crappier in terms of damage due to their accuracy. The only kinda ok one is that stompa with 3 antitank weapons, which can be used to safely attack dreadnoughts and anti-infantry oriented tanks. But again, its damage in one turn is comparable to one busta squad in melee, its very expensive and its life expectancy is like 1-2 turns.

So yeah... Kinda the opposite to campaign, maybe cost increase to titans wasn't warranted after all.

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Re: Unit and unit types review

Post by HeadWar » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:24 pm

redeyedjedi wrote:Towards the end of my last playthrough I had a mix of Steel Legion and Blood Angels/Salamanders.

That buff they did on Captain Tycho made him BOSS. I had him rolling with a retinue of 3 Blood Angels Terminators w/assault cannon mounted in Land Raiders, a Blood Angel Command Squad, a unit of Sanguinaries, and 2 Tac squads w/grav gun. 2 units of Firedrakes mounted in Land Raiders for good measure.

Steel Legion I have to say superheavies were fun to have a long. I had I think 3 upgraded Baneblades, 2 upgraded Baneswords, and a Shadowsword. The low damage they delt was a little frustrating.. but if I ever needed to knock out entrenched infantry that's what the Blood Angels were for.. or my gods of war.

Speaking of Gods of war.. I had a core of 4 Reavers that eventually expanded to 8. Even if they get too low on health you can just have them stand back and rocket things.

I stopped using Steel Legion infantry the moment I could.
How the hell can you afford all that?

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