Acceptable Losses and ship crew compliment?

The Cylons have rebelled. The alliance of the Twelve Colonies falters. Take control of the Colonial Fleet and save humanity from an endless war.
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Panzer_Spaniard
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Acceptable Losses and ship crew compliment?

Post by Panzer_Spaniard » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:41 pm

Hey all, I am starting a new play through on a bit of a tougher difficulty, and repairing my ships after engagements. I have also determined I am not auto resolving battles, and not reloading if I lose a ship (yeah, I have done that, not entirely proud).

My question is: What are considered acceptable losses in a space battle? I entered an optional battle with fleet group Daedalus and 2 Manticores, 2 Adamants, and 3 Berserks. The Cylons entered with 4 Nemesis and 3 Talons. I took next to no fighter losses (thanks to an asteroid belt where most of the fighter engagements happened, though I don't know how that works game wise when a carrier is destroyed?) but I lost a Manticore early on, and then a Berserk by a bad stroke of luck at the very end of the battle. I took out all 7 Cylon ships, and I lost 2 out of my 7 ships. Would this be considered an acceptable ratio of losses?

Second question, lore wise: Are the crew compliments of the ships known? I have looked around, and I can't get clear numbers for anything but the Jupiter (thanks to the show and lore). I would like to know when I lose a ship, how many souls went with her, as I can assume that many would not make it to lifeboats or emergency evac stations.

Thanks for any help answering this, I am loving the game on my second play through, the tactics and forward thinking are a fun challenge.

So say we all!

kpmh2001
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Re: Acceptable Losses and ship crew compliment?

Post by kpmh2001 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:10 am

The biggest factor isn't truly the specific ships lost, it's the investment of tylium and what experience level their on (assuming you have that DLC active). Keeping track of how much tylium you spend on each ship is a pain depending on how much you choose to rush construction, so I choose to only factor in the base cost. In your case I would readily answer no, a Manticore and a Berserk do not constitute unacceptable losses. Losing larger ships like Ranger's and obviously battlestars would give me serious pause however.

For your second question I would point you to Spacedock, I think I can get away with pointing you toward his videos as they are both related to Battlestar Galactica: Deadlock and I believe were actually produced in conjunction with someone on the team behind the game. I know the Manticore at least had a crew around 600 and a marine complement of 100 (I don't know if they are included in the 600 number, total souls aboard may reach 700), either way, it would be like losing a handful of smaller ships in a modern naval fleet.

Panzer_Spaniard
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Re: Acceptable Losses and ship crew compliment?

Post by Panzer_Spaniard » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:36 pm

Thanks for that! I unfortunately did lose one of my experienced ships, but the other experienced Manticore survived. I am glad to know that I am not taking unreasonable losses occasionally, that battle made 3 ships to date (a Manticore got jumped early on by torpedoes and couldn't escape the ensuing cannon fire from pursuing Nemesis corvettes in time).

I went and watched a few of the SpaceDock shorts (I had seen them on my home page, and watched them a while back, but had forgotten they existed, thanks for the reminder), it looks like with the three ships and 3 fighters I've lost (I'm including the fighters lost from the Berserk in the total loss of the ship) I have sustained 2,553 KIA confirmed, and I am just about to do the mission for the Mk II Vipers.

I think I might keep a running count of "the cost of war" as I lose ships and fighters, since I'll be manually engaging the enemy in each battle. I'll also do my best to keep a count of the number of enemy ships destroyed, and do a count of losses inflicted on the Cylons.

I really appreciate the help, do you think there would be interest on the forums of hearing more about the playthrough that I described?

So Say We All

Panzer_Spaniard
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Re: Acceptable Losses and ship crew compliment?

Post by Panzer_Spaniard » Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:37 am

No need to reply to this, I'm keeping a running count here on my own thread. So far, the KIA toll is up to 3443, with four ships lost with all hands, as well as 33 vipers shot down during engagements with Cylons.

The Quorum is holding steady, and a fleet is being raised from each of the 12 colonies, hopefully each will eventually have a Jupiter attached to it.

Panzer_Spaniard
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Re: Acceptable Losses and ship crew compliment?

Post by Panzer_Spaniard » Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:13 pm

Virgon is safe, but the crew of the Meretseger paid the ultimate price to ensure that safety. We ask the Lord's Of Kobol to take their sons and daughters into their loving hands. So Say We All.

We've lost five ships to the Cylons so far, under my command, and 44 brave pilots and their Vipers. 4,397 men and women I ordered to their deaths, all hopefully for the greater good. Regardless, our enemies pay high prices; for each ship or fighter we lose, they lose ten. I am confident that victory can be achieved, but will I be able to look a grieving mother and the eyes and tell her it was worth it?

I do not know.

End log.

Panzer_Spaniard
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Re: Acceptable Losses and ship crew compliment?

Post by Panzer_Spaniard » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:25 am

A trial by fire.... never is the first engagement an easy one. The fleet rallied from Sagittaron, the 42nd Jaegers, met the enemy today. The battle was pitched, and the odds stacked heavily in the favor of the Cylons.

The crew of the Manticore "Persephone" performed gallantly, and I will be putting her commanding officer in for the Colonial Cluster, posthumously. Were it not for his actions, the Cylons would have overran the rest of the 42nd before they could respond. Into the fray he went, painting targets and directing the fire of the command Ranger.

The Cylons... they didn't take kindly to this. Three Nemesis corvettes unloaded with missiles and guns at the retreating Persephone, and Wardrivers pursued. Before our Vipers could respond, she was finished.

We made the frakkers pay. Four ships against 8, out gunned, out numbered.... by the end of it, every Adamant and the Ranger were without missiles to fire, and the Vipers skidded down with bingo fuel after the long and fast pursuit of the fleeing Talon carriers. Every pilot landed safely, but there were hardly any cheers, as the wrecked and broken Hull of Persephone floated past, her crew frozen and pale in the black void of space.

6 ships now, and 5,247 men and women I have had to commission condolence letters for, and submit for gallantry medals to be delivered to their next of kin.

Will the madness ever stop? We've just heard reports of chemical attacks against Aerelon, my the Lords Of Kobol help us all.

End log.

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Re: Acceptable Losses and ship crew compliment?

Post by BossDos » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:39 pm

When we saw her first, we thought we already won. How could something that great, that heavily armored with such firepower be beaten?
We all were pretty green then, most of the crews came directly from fleet academy and muster, transported via shuttle and raptors we had only one job, to reinforce the third colonial fleet compliment, namely the Battlestar Group 83.
Ohh were we all joyful, when we saw here the first time. The hulking spaceframe of a Battlestar that screamed its name via giant white letters on the hangar bays.
Hades, it said and while she was not one of the twelve, none of the mighty Jupiters, she would become our home and after the first filthy few engagements we name her "The Butchers Barge".
When we left the ports of Scorpia, we thought we could never lose, we had a Battlestar and half a dozen, frigates, escorts and cruisers to our protection.
And I was just a green First Lieutenant, fresh from the academy, I thought of Glory, of my young wife at home, back on Virgon, who awaited my return as a hero of war.
We were so stupid back then... but it doesn't matter.

Here speaks the commander, to all Stations immediately abandon your stations and get to the raptors or escape pods.
I repeat all hands leave the ship.
To all colonial fleet assets near, do not reinforce us. To all Colonial forces,... we lost the Hades.
Ohh Lords of Kobol please save us.

End of log.

Panzer_Spaniard
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Re: Acceptable Losses and ship crew compliment?

Post by Panzer_Spaniard » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:10 pm

BossDos wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:39 pm
When we saw her first, we thought we already won. How could something that great, that heavily armored with such firepower be beaten?
We all were pretty green then, most of the crews came directly from fleet academy and muster, transported via shuttle and raptors we had only one job, to reinforce the third colonial fleet compliment, namely the Battlestar Group 83.
Ohh were we all joyful, when we saw here the first time. The hulking spaceframe of a Battlestar that screamed its name via giant white letters on the hangar bays.
Hades, it said and while she was not one of the twelve, none of the mighty Jupiters, she would become our home and after the first filthy few engagements we name her "The Butchers Barge".
When we left the ports of Scorpia, we thought we could never lose, we had a Battlestar and half a dozen, frigates, escorts and cruisers to our protection.
And I was just a green First Lieutenant, fresh from the academy, I thought of Glory, of my young wife at home, back on Virgon, who awaited my return as a hero of war.
We were so stupid back then... but it doesn't matter.

Here speaks the commander, to all Stations immediately abandon your stations and get to the raptors or escape pods.
I repeat all hands leave the ship.
To all colonial fleet assets near, do not reinforce us. To all Colonial forces,... we lost the Hades.
Ohh Lords of Kobol please save us.

End of log.
With the speed these battles play out, I generally don't think about ships being able to get hands to life boats, or rescue raptors. When I (if I) lose a larger ship (Ranger, Artemis, Atlas, etc) I might take into account how prolonged the damage was, and make some rolls to see how many people would get off (if it's my flagship, I know the officer is lost, as they wouldn't leave the CIC).

I am enjoying writing these and hearing the feedback and storytelling of others, keep this thread up! Post after action reports with ship losses, or fantastic victories, from the point of view of the fleet officer either in command of the ships in the battle, or the overall commander.

Looking forward to more! So Say We All.

Panzer_Spaniard
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Re: Acceptable Losses and ship crew compliment?

Post by Panzer_Spaniard » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:52 pm

Casualties mount. 6,197 naval and marine personnel have fallen to the Cylons following my orders. 7 ships, 49 Vipers...our victory will be bought in blood and chrome and death.

Sagittaron was attacked again, the 42nd had just gotten a replacement ship for the corvette that was lost in the last Cylon raid. I cannot express my hatred for the Cerestes class of nightmare these frakking toasters are throwing at us. Fast, nimble, and seemingly heavily armored. They tear our Vipers to shreds, and distract our ships from dealing with hacking and fighter threats.

The Rwenzori was victim to this, the light carrier attached to the 42nd Jaegers, hit with an opening salvo, and then picked off by squadron after squadron of raiders, all before we even had our birds in the tubes, while we dealt with the Cerestes. Her last defiant act was launching her CAP and evacuating those who could make it off. Jim Dunning was still at his post giving orders when I saw her go. Sad....

Beyond that, all that was lost was 5 Vipers and more expended missiles than I've seen on Colonial Day. We have to find an effective way to scout the enemy Forces at distance, and put the hurt on them from range. Perhaps Quade will give is a few ideas on how to revamp old Leonian or Aerelonian designs, and press them into service.

For now, Daedalus is working on a replacement for the 42nd, and we're dealing with another interdiction over Libran. At this point, I am not sure how well we can effectively fight the Cylons without so many hands lost. It may come to be a standing order that if Cerestes are detected, all hands are to report to emergency stations on corvettes and carriers, as they seem to be the prey of choice for Nemesis class ships that aren't thoroughly distracted with fighters.

After action reports beginning to come in, I'll write more later.

End log.

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Re: Acceptable Losses and ship crew compliment?

Post by Panzer_Spaniard » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:59 pm

(As an update to anyone being entertained by this thread, I am not going to be updating it further. I have been testing the new beta, and it has a: taken a good deal of my time away from playing for story or my own goals and b: affected the save and the intent in which I made it since I have had to save scrum to check things, and I made the initial error of loading my ongoing save. This tread will pick back up later if people are interested in semi-fan fiction/officer logs and letters documenting the first Cylon War. I might scale the scope back to following just one of the many fleets, so as to not alter the perception of whoever the player is intended to be. Thanks for the feedback, discussion, and participation, feel free to discuss anything with me on Discord Panzer Spaniard #6561)

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Re: Acceptable Losses and ship crew compliment?

Post by kaisiyatsy » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:08 pm

Panzer_Spaniard wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:25 am
A trial by fire.... never is the first engagement an easy one. The fleet rallied from Sagittaron, the 42nd Jaegers, met the enemy today. The battle was pitched, and the odds stacked heavily in the favor of the Cylons.

The crew of the Manticore "Persephone" performed gallantly, and I will be putting her commanding officer in for the Colonial Cluster, posthumously. Were it not for his actions, the Cylons would have overran the rest of the 42nd before they could respond. Into the fray he went, painting targets and directing the fire of the command Ranger.

The Cylons... they didn't take kindly to this. Three Nemesis corvettes unloaded with missiles and guns at the retreating Persephone, and Wardrivers pursued. Before our Vipers could respond, she was finished.

We made the frakkers pay. Four ships against 8, out gunned, out numbered.... by the end of it, every Adamant and the Ranger were without missiles to fire, and the Vipers skidded down with bingo fuel after the long and fast pursuit of the fleeing Talon carriers. Every pilot landed safely, but there were hardly any cheers, as the wrecked and broken Hull of Persephone floated past, her crew frozen and pale in the black void of space.

6 ships now, and 5,247 men and women I have had to commission condolence letters for, and submit for gallantry medals to be delivered to their next of kin.

Will the madness ever stop? We've just heard reports of chemical attacks against Aerelon, my the Lords Of Kobol help us all.

End log.
My question is: What are considered acceptable losses in a space battle? I entered an optional battle with fleet group Daedalus and 2 Manticores, 2 Adamants, and 3 Berserks. The Cylons entered with 4 Nemesis and 3 Talons. I took next to no fighter losses (thanks to an asteroid belt where most of the fighter engagements happened, though I don't know how that works game wise when a carrier is destroyed?) but I lost a Manticore early on, and then a Berserk by a bad stroke of luck at the very end of the battle. I took out all 7 Cylon ships, and I lost 2 out of my 7 ships. Would this be considered an acceptable ratio of losses?

Panzer_Spaniard
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Re: Acceptable Losses and ship crew compliment?

Post by Panzer_Spaniard » Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:34 am

kaisiyatsy wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:08 pm
Panzer_Spaniard wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:25 am
A trial by fire.... never is the first engagement an easy one. The fleet rallied from Sagittaron, the 42nd Jaegers, met the enemy today. The battle was pitched, and the odds stacked heavily in the favor of the Cylons.

The crew of the Manticore "Persephone" performed gallantly, and I will be putting her commanding officer in for the Colonial Cluster, posthumously. Were it not for his actions, the Cylons would have overran the rest of the 42nd before they could respond. Into the fray he went, painting targets and directing the fire of the command Ranger.

The Cylons... they didn't take kindly to this. Three Nemesis corvettes unloaded with missiles and guns at the retreating Persephone, and Wardrivers pursued. Before our Vipers could respond, she was finished.

We made the frakkers pay. Four ships against 8, out gunned, out numbered.... by the end of it, every Adamant and the Ranger were without missiles to fire, and the Vipers skidded down with bingo fuel after the long and fast pursuit of the fleeing Talon carriers. Every pilot landed safely, but there were hardly any cheers, as the wrecked and broken Hull of Persephone floated past, her crew frozen and pale in the black void of space.

6 ships now, and 5,247 men and women I have had to commission condolence letters for, and submit for gallantry medals to be delivered to their next of kin.

Will the madness ever stop? We've just heard reports of chemical attacks against Aerelon, my the Lords Of Kobol help us all.

End log.
My question is: What are considered acceptable losses in a space battle? I entered an optional battle with fleet group Daedalus and 2 Manticores, 2 Adamants, and 3 Berserks. The Cylons entered with 4 Nemesis and 3 Talons. I took next to no fighter losses (thanks to an asteroid belt where most of the fighter engagements happened, though I don't know how that works game wise when a carrier is destroyed?) but I lost a Manticore early on, and then a Berserk by a bad stroke of luck at the very end of the battle. I took out all 7 Cylon ships, and I lost 2 out of my 7 ships. Would this be considered an acceptable ratio of losses?
Did you just quote my original question in response to this?

If you scroll down, it was answered that a Manticore and a Berserk are not undue losses at the beginning of the game.

I took my question and made it into a fun and story driven post, using the engagements as writing prompts.

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Re: Acceptable Losses and ship crew compliment?

Post by BossDos » Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:22 am

It depends on your game state, your economy, the amount of Cylons that are present on the map, the number of colonies you've got under the quorum and so on.

While in the first few hours of game the losing of a berzerk can be quite a hit because it's one of your strongest ships and it costs quite a bit tylium more than a manticore, after getting your first cruisers or a Battlestar it changes quite rapidly.
Especially when trading kills begins it is quite a thing, so I would rather trade a berzerk, then an Artemis for a kill.
In your case, I think trading 2 ships against 7 of the enemy is quite worth it. But it is still hard in early game states.
Economy wise you traded 1150 Tylium against around 6000 tylium worth of Cylon assets.
That's a fair and good trade, depending on the difficulty you choose, because on Admiral the Cylons start cheating a lot, to generate economy they could not have.

But you have to calculate what you get from the optional mission, 500 tylium? An officer? A new ship? That might alter if it is worth or not.
Trading 2 ships for an officer, which you don't need in early stages? Not worth it. Tylium and/or Research Points? Probably worth it. New Ship? Depends on the ship, an adamant, quite worth it, a manticore probably not.

You need to think and, that's what makes it interesting, sometimes make poor choices or you need to risk too much. It also differs if you play with permanent damage or without. Because it stretches your economy quite hard and suddenly your ships are worth more if you invested 200 more tylium after engagement for repairs into them.

So it gets quite complex at some point and you need to make hard decisions. Repair your ships or not? Risk that Ship at first place or nor even risking it at all? But then why have you built it at first, when you don't want to risk it. Do you want to retreat and make an emergency jump that costs you almost enough to build a new ship?
That are the choices you need to make, and no one can tell you if they are good or bad. You do what you think is right. That's why you are the commander after all.
And after all, the ships you risk and the hands are warships and soldiers, they are supposed to be destroyed and die, so others are not.

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Re: Acceptable Losses and ship crew compliment?

Post by Panzer_Spaniard » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:43 pm

That's actually the best answer I've gotten so far from this! I am playing with permanent damage, and while Admiral difficulty is....a thing that exists, the point you made as to the Cylons cheating the economy is very real, and it turns into more of a slog than I would like it to.

I had not taken repairs into account for the overall cost of a ship, but that makes perfect sense. I'm running into the issue of having fighter heavy fleets of Adamant and Berserk class ships run into Cerastes and unless I go whole hog with all my fighters on one ship to ensure that it goes down, they just get cut to ribbons, and I'm left without fighter support.

Other than that, things are peachy. My first play through was in Xbox (prior to the reinforcement pack DLC) and I cleaned house readily. Didn't really stop to think about anything at all.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll try to keep an economy count running, maybe an Excel sheet for ships and the running coat of them.

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