When do you dismount lancers?

[kvnrthr]

The Belisarius DLC has a lot of options to dismount cavalry, which is pretty cool. I'm not sure how to use dismounted lancers though.

Since they're heavy offensive spearmen, my guess is that they might be able to protect bowmen and horse archers against lancer cavalry. But why not just use limitanii if it's a Byzantine list?

It seems that dismounting could potentially be useful against the Sassanids with their raw spearmen and elephants. I haven't tried that out yet though.

[jomni]

I haven’t played a lot of these lists but I would dismount if the terrain is not good for cavalry. Or maybe when the opponent does not have a lot of horses. Lancers are good as anti-cavalry but not good against infantry.

[kvnrthr]

Unfortunately when dismounted they are undrilled heavy foot. So it won't help them avoid disorder in rough ground or forests.

[MVP7]

It is a bit unfortunate that dismounting option is only offered to armies that have been documented to do so which leaves out a whole lot of armies that would really benefit from it but are simply less documented. Pre-dismounted options being available to many lists that can dismount further reduces the value of the ability.

It's very good point that dismounted units being heavy foot kind of reduces the tactical value of the ability even further in many cases. Maybe the protected Noble Lancers could dismount as medium foot rather than heavy?

[Paul59]

Unfortunately when dismounted they are undrilled heavy foot. So it won't help them avoid disorder in rough ground or forests.

Of course you would not put your dismounted lancers in rough terrain or forests! I am sure that is not what jomni meant.

On a battlefield with lots of rough or forest cavalry are severely effected, they are primarily offensive units that need to manoeuvre. The dismounted lancers are mainly defensive units, it is far easier to find some good ground on which to base a defensive line, even on maps that have a lot of bad terrain.

I think the value of Dismountable Lancers is really in SP campaign games. In a campaign battle you can decide to dismount your lancers or not, depending upon the type of opponent you are facing. If you decide to dismount them, you can always revert to using them as lancer cavalry in the next battle, if it is appropriate.

In the Belisarius campaign, I would always dismount them against armies with greater numbers of cavalry, like the Vandals and Ostrogoths. The dismounted lancers would combine with the Roman Heavy infantry to pin the enemy cavalry, and you can use your missile troops to shoot them to pieces.

They are probably of less value in one off SP or MP Custom battles. For those type of battle, if you need infantry you would just buy your normal infantry options, those are normally more cost effective.

[vakarr]

I would dismount the lancers if faced by spear-armed heavy foot, as the lancers don't seem to bounce off them and the spear armed heavy foot have a better chance. How do you dismount troops anyway, and what happens to the horses? Can you dismount then remount? Or is it something you have to do during deployment?

[melm]

I would dismount the lancers if faced by spear-armed heavy foot, as the lancers don't seem to bounce off them and the spear armed heavy foot have a better chance. How do you dismount troops anyway, and what happens to the horses? Can you dismount then remount? Or is it something you have to do during deployment?

Player can only dismount during deployment phase. Once they are dismounted and game starts, you stick to these dismounted units with no option to remount.

[TheGrayMouser]

If you play with historical opponents, dismounting some of your lancers can be helpful:
1) in an era of mediocre infantry vs infantry power , some superior offensive spears can be very useful.

2) if you have a bunch of lancers, and your opponent has a bunch of lancers, neither side can easily achieve any local advantage. A few quality dismounts can pin by zoc the enemies lancers while you can concentrate you own elsewhere.

I usually only dismount the protected ones, the cost is too great for the return on the armoured ones imho.

[vakarr]

Is the ability to dismount a freebie or does it cost extra points?

[rbodleyscott]

Is the ability to dismount a freebie or does it cost extra points?

It's a freebie, but of course the unit you get after dismounting would have been cheaper purchased as infantry. So that basically you are discarding some points by dismounting.

[fogman]

Is the inability to remount during the battle

a historical fact or a coding constraint?

[SnuggleBunnies]

Is the inability to remount during the battle

a historical fact or a coding constraint?

It's not a coding constraint. I believe Richard coded it this way because most examples he could find of remounting were to mount a pursuit after the enemy had already broken.

[fogman]

And I suppose the same logic is applicable to dismounting during battle?

[SnuggleBunnies]

And I suppose the same logic is applicable to dismounting during battle?

That is my understanding. There's a discussion around Nicopolis specifically here:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1368870/ ... 784364103/

[fogman]

I was more thinking about horse archers, rather than heavy cavalry, who don't seem to send their horses to the rear but kept them close by.

Battle of Parwan 1221, "And when they attacked the TÂTÂRS, he spake to the men of his bodyguard, and they all dismounted, and each man took (i.e. led) his horse in his hand, and they despised death." (Bar Hebraeus)

"He commanded the whole army to dismount whilst keeping hold of their horses and to fight like desperate men...And
when the latter [Mongols] withdrew [not routed] before that attack and made for their base, the Sultan commanded the drums to be beaten, and the whole army mounted horse and made a general charge, putting the Mongol army to flight. In the midst of their flight, however, they turned round a second time and charged down upon the Sultan's army, striking nearly 5oo warriors to the ground." (Ata-Malik Juvaini)

Instance of horse archers dismounting after battle was joined, in desperate situation.

Battle of Abulustayn 1277, "At the approach of the enemy, the horsemen of Islam rushed down the mountain... The Tatars, having dismounted [they did not go into battle dismounted], fought with the courage of men resigned to death." (Al-Makrizi)

Ibn al-Athyr noted regarding the battle of Arsuf that "Many [auxiliary] cavalry and common people had been accustomed to take a position during a battle close to the action," referring to the practice of dismounting to have a better shot: "The Turks had purposely dismounted from their horses in order to take better aim at our men with their darts and arrows." (Itinerarium Regis Ricardi)

Horse armies would be enjoyable, and more historical, with the ability to dismount and remount.

[SnuggleBunnies]

I think this is two different things. Agreed on the Mongols, there are attested examples of them dismounting mid-battle in order to make a stand.

Things like Arsuf I think should be excluded. Here, I think the bonus for stationary shooting abstracts this in. Saladin's men at Arsuf didn't dismount to fight and have a more solid line; they did so to shoot more effectively, and once charged, attempted (with varying success) to remount and get the **** out of there.

So, it seems fairly rare, and if implemented would need to be limited to armies that are attested to have actually done so. It would probably also require that such units cost a few more points.

[fogman]

Not so sure that the Turkic horsemen fighting with the Khwarazmians differed from the Turkic horsemen fighting with the Ayyubids. They're all part of the same cultural continuum. The difference in outcome doesn't negate the fact that they could and did dismount and could and did remount since their horses were with them and not sent to the rear.

Now, how that is implemented in the game, or not, is not my concern.

[Jorgito78]

Horse armies would be enjoyable, and more historical, with the ability to dismount and remount.

I wouldn't go so far as to having the ability of remount unless there was a penalty when remounting if there are enemy units at X squares to simulate the mayhem of battle which I think would make it hard to remount in an orderly manner. But I do agree that there could be an ability to dismount mid-battle since that would be natural