Mistakes vere made, mein Fuhrer - Endsieg Review and Discuss

[Admiral_Horthy]

I have doubts whether even winning on the operational scale during the battle of Kursk (it's now recognized that the Kursk battle was only a tactical victory for the Germans ) would destroy in any significant way the offensive potential of the USSR, although it could end with a separatist peace between these two dictators
I know that the secret negotiations between the USSR and the Third Reich lasted until the conference in Teheran (end of November 1943), then Stalin decided to continue the alliance with the Great Britain&USA (the price for the continuation of the alliance was, among other things, the Soviets' control over Central and East Europe)

I don't want to discuss if depth ... but it is related to the campaign tree and possibilities (ideas for scenario builders).
Mainly, don't look at Kursk as a single battle or Operation. Look at the whole thing from the "victory" at Stalingrad which was rather marginal victory or a draw in fact. Manstein's series of operations from the evacuation of the Caucasus, Rostov, Harkov, the counterattack after - all that resulted and formed the Kursk salient. That was the point where a peace talks were mentioned - Stalin asked too much, Hitler wanted to keep too much. The actual Kursk battle came way too late but still it was the last realistic point where things could have been turned. Stalin indeed had an already advantage in Tehran as he saved Britain big time in late 1940.

[kverdon]

If sacrifices needed to be made in order to stay within budget, why not have done something a bit more sensical like limiting the scope to just the Eastern Front. Instead of making the out of place West Front scenarios, why not put in 4 or so more East Front to account for a last big Russian Counterattack? Then after defeating this, you roll to Moscow? You could have then made a separate West Front DLC that would have used the Sandstrom Core Units, defending in Sicily and then Italy before heading to France. End Game would be a successful Battle Of The Bulge with a follow on recapture of Paris and a negotiated Peace. This would have allowed you to sell 2 DLCs instead of one and both would have been better than the one we have.

[13obo]

I personally like the way the DLC was done with a good balance of east and west front missions. To be fair, the endless Russian maps with green ground/air hordes swarming from all directions start to bore me after 3-4 scenarios.

[hrafnkolbrandr]

I personally like the way the DLC was done with a good balance of east and west front missions. To be fair, the endless Russian maps with green ground/air hordes swarming from all directions start to bore me after 3-4 scenarios.

Absolutely!

[cutydt02]

hey guys, anyone got error at paris defence scenario ?? i hold both paris and rouen for exactly 10 turns and 6 turns then in the end, defeated ???
p/s: anyone sees heavy tanks just not that good ? we mostly play on defensive mission then inf-stug spam just work well

[bebro]

I can't check any saves right now - what exactly is the problem you're having in Paris

edit: did you maybe miss the secondary "evacuate Paris" objective?

As it's a secondary missing it does not make you lose the whole scn though.

[Andy2012]

If sacrifices needed to be made in order to stay within budget, why not have done something a bit more sensical like limiting the scope to just the Eastern Front. Instead of making the out of place West Front scenarios, why not put in 4 or so more East Front to account for a last big Russian Counterattack? Then after defeating this, you roll to Moscow? You could have then made a separate West Front DLC that would have used the Sandstrom Core Units, defending in Sicily and then Italy before heading to France. End Game would be a successful Battle Of The Bulge with a follow on recapture of Paris and a negotiated Peace. This would have allowed you to sell 2 DLCs instead of one and both would have been better than the one we have.

I am not privy to Slitherine's and the Artistocrat's plans and business projections. But there is always an editor supplied with the DLC and this forum is a ready audience.

[Mojko]

Yes, Fastov has those river banks - but you are in arty and bomber range, can be attacked from multiple directions and possibly cut off plus there is little space to rotate units to the rear for recovery. It is just a suicide position which I can retake later on with minimal losses and damage to my core.

I won't argue about a scen I haven't ever played before ( ), but from experience I woudn't retreat from such position. There are towns within rivers, yeah okay, those are hard to defend, but Fastov seems reasonable. And Kiev has a silver flag, so I'd probably have to advance and capture the eastern part anyway(?). The first turns will hurt for sure, but generally I don't share your (and Mojko's) disposition to hoard money . If I can use RPs - right now - to crush the enemy faster and harder, I'll do it rather than saving for the future.

As always: It's the player's choice...

I like hoarding RPs, but I also don't like giving ground to the enemy. I decided to hold Fastov and it's actually pretty easy. Here is my advice:

- deploy engineers on the south east bridge hex near Fastov and lay mines on the hex on the first turn. This limits the number of units attacking Fastov
- deploy two Panther tanks near Fastov and attack the heavy infantry east of Fastov and push forward, stay out of river hexes, this allows you to spot the enemy artillery
- deploy a 17K 18 near Fastov and shoot enemy artillery on the first turn
- all other artillery units can be spotted and shot at during first turn without any problems, because your fighters can spot them and the rest of 17H 18 can shoot directly at them
- the key is to deny the enemy to shoot their tower artillery
- they have some mobile artillery, but these will move within range on their first turn
- do not deploy all your units during deployment phase
- AT guns like Flak 88 and some infantry can be deployed on your first turn in forward positions once your units vacate the hexes

Key unit composition:

4x Panther A
2x Flak 88
6x 17K 18 (3 waffen ss, 3 core)
5x Fw 190 F

I will post replays as soon as the feature is working

[hrafnkolbrandr]

When is a good time to begin the counterattack toward Kiev? I am on turn 10. I retreated from Fastov and have been bashing them at the forest line; but I was given a new T-34 and it caused me to go yellow on supply.

[Andy2012]

When is a good time to begin the counterattack toward Kiev? I am on turn 10. I retreated from Fastov and have been bashing them at the forest line; but I was given a new T-34 and it caused me to go yellow on supply.

Yes, if you give ground, you may lose supply. But orange supply is not that bad. Around turn 10-12 should be a good point to counterattack towards Fastov and then Kiev. Supply issues should be over after taking Fastov. There are also smaller supply nodes in the north you may have lost.

[hrafnkolbrandr]

Thank you.

I started my counterattack at turn 12, retaking Fastov fixed the supply issue. Retook Kiev at turn 20.

Going to stop here and wait for them to correct the date bugs on certain specs and units before I play the campaign further.

[WarHomer]

Is it just me or is this DLC not that hard? It doesn´t quite feel like the crucible of the German war.

I play on Field Marshall with an imported core from Panzerkrieg. I´ve just finished the first mission in the west after comfortably beating the Russians in almost all missions in the first try.

My strategy is a bit like Andy´s with a basic setup of inf and stugs/elephants, only 1-2 tanks, arty (longrange and nebelwerfers), 2 antiair and 1 dedicated dogfighter and 4 Me410 (really powerful plane which completely makes Stukas obsolete except against naval and I haven´t seen any of that yet).

I pick my defensive line, retreat the forward aux and just hold on which has been somewhat easy. Pretty basic with not much challenging outmanouvering or the like necessary or even implied.

Maybe too much xp from my imported core...

[kondi754]

Is it just me or is this DLC not that hard? It doesn´t quite feel like the crucible of the German war.

I play on Field Marshall with an imported core from Panzerkrieg. I´ve just finished the first mission in the west after comfortably beating the Russians in almost all missions in the first try.

My strategy is a bit like Andy´s with a basic setup of inf and stugs/elephants, only 1-2 tanks, arty (longrange and nebelwerfers), 2 antiair and 1 dedicated dogfighter and 4 Me410 (really powerful plane which completely makes Stukas obsolete except against naval and I haven´t seen any of that yet).

I pick my defensive line, retreat the forward aux and just hold on which has been somewhat easy. Pretty basic with not much challenging outmanouvering or the like necessary or even implied.

Maybe too much xp from my imported core...

I've already told you to participate in the Beta tests...
When I reported that it's too easy during testing, everyone laughed that it said Kondi, and he always says it is too easy, that new players will not want to buy this game if it'll too hard, etc.
It was supposed to be a bit difficult later, but later I didn't have time to check it
If you were then, maybe we would be able to convince the rest that it should be much more difficult ...
(That's why I am pushing to create a campaign wich will be compatible with the historical reality of World War II - then it would be REALLY difficult )

[Andy2012]

@Warhomer, kondi: Well, you guys are experts. And even in Panzercorps, if you played right, you won easily. I think OoB has enough noob tripwires; however, a very difficult fictional campaign could add a new layer of difficulty. Nudge, nudge to the devs.

[bebro]

I've already told you to participate in the Beta tests...
When I reported that it's too easy during testing, everyone laughed that it said Kondi, and he always says it is too easy, that new players will not want to buy this game if it'll too hard, etc.

I actually found feedabck from you playing the highest level very valuable

But thing is, when several ppl report they are struggling on normal still there is less incentive too make it even harder.

Players who find it too easy could also try it out with the pre-set core and less commanders.

[WarHomer]

Pre-set core would ruin the continuation aspect which I find absolutely critical and the most fun of both this game and Panzer Corps.

I guess I could start with my Sandstorm units, but this feels kind of broken as I´ve commented on in another thread.

A quick fix while still keeping the highest difficulty level "high" could be lowering the amount of xp that are transferred. Maybe max 1,5 stars from Blitzkrig to Panzerkrieg and 2,5 stars from Panzerkrieg to Endkrieg. Its not a perfect fix, but it could help a bit while still gaining some continuity benefits and not mess up the specs that awards 1 star.

I think I´ve mentioned the same problems a long time ago when transferring units from Morning Sun to Rising Sun. It makes Rising Sun a bit easy.

[bebro]

A quick fix while still keeping the highest difficulty level "high" could be lowering the amount of xp that are transferred. Maybe max 1,5 stars from Blitzkrig to Panzerkrieg and 2,5 stars from Panzerkrieg to Endkrieg

It's a good idea, but it would have to be implemented extra, so unfortunately not a quick thing for now.

What I added during beta based especially on Kondi's feedback were extra triggers that remove certain aux units in diffculty IV and V so that the player needs to expose core units more in higher levels. I would be fine with expanding that even more.

[kondi754]

I wrote it once and repeat it now, Bebro really listens to the testers
The truth is that we spend too much time playing OoB and it's natural that the game is getting easier for us
(The question is how to make it demanding again?)

[Halvralf]

Is it just me or is this DLC not that hard? It doesn´t quite feel like the crucible of the German war.

I play on Field Marshall with an imported core from Panzerkrieg. I´ve just finished the first mission in the west after comfortably beating the Russians in almost all missions in the first try.

My strategy is a bit like Andy´s with a basic setup of inf and stugs/elephants, only 1-2 tanks, arty (longrange and nebelwerfers), 2 antiair and 1 dedicated dogfighter and 4 Me410 (really powerful plane which completely makes Stukas obsolete except against naval and I haven´t seen any of that yet).

I pick my defensive line, retreat the forward aux and just hold on which has been somewhat easy. Pretty basic with not much challenging outmanouvering or the like necessary or even implied.

Maybe too much xp from my imported core...

I play on diff 3 and as I am as I am I have to try all aspects in the first scenario. First time I just went kazoom attacking and that cost me way too much. Second time I deployed 2x Tigers, 2x Pather D and 3 K18 17 and put all the fighters round the bomber. I also put one of the air commanders with a def bonus in the bomber, I had a Stug and some infantry and BOOM easy!! Now I gonna try out Andy's and your way with lot of inf and Stugs/AT and I will report back. A question, how many Nebels and how many K18 17 did you deploy?

[Halvralf]

I wrote it once and repeat it now, Bebro really listens to the testers
The truth is that we spend too much time playing OoB and it's natural that the game is getting easier for us
(The question is how to make it demanding again?)

Hmm Kondi , maybe you need to join AWG? (AWG=Anomynous WarGamers)