Gustav Vasa -- Phase 5: Planning orders

[stockwellpete]

Some difficult decisions to be made I would think!

Nah! We just need to kill more Danes!

[hidde]

Some difficult decisions to be made I would think!

Nah! We just need to kill more Danes!

Spot on!

[batesmotel]

It's time for the original Gustav Vasa to come out of hidde-ing! Down with the impostor

Chris

[cavehobbit]

Will update the map later today.

That was two well needed victories for Gustav!

[cavehobbit]

If I've understand it right these are the losses in the second battle:

Swedish
1x Militia
1x Militia w/Cbow
1x Skirmisher w/Cbow

Danish
3x Knight
5x Soldier
2x Soldier w/Cbow
1x Crossbowmen
1x Skirmisher w/Cbow
1x Skirmisher w/Firearm
1x Heavy Arty

[cavehobbit]

Phase 2 is over and it's time to plan for phase 3 (July 1521).

With Gustav and his Army of Dalarna winning two critical battles in Westmanland, the Army of Westmanland join the rebellion. But their leader, Peder Svensson, have problems to gather all his men in the middle of the summer and therefore Gustav Vasa will not have this army available yet. But in Helsingland an army has been formed, even without a strong leader!
Gustavs victories also gave the Army of Nerke the opportunity to withdraw to Dalarna, rather than being dissolved.

The Army of Uppsala returns back to Uppsala and lick their wounds.

In Westmanland the Army of Västerås prepare themselves if Gustav Vasa orders his army to besiege the castle.

So, as the Swedish rebel leader Gustav Vasa being victorious has lead to more Swedes joining his ranks. But the Danish are far from beaten and King Kristian are now recruiting German mercenaries although they won't reach Sweden yet for some months...


Updated OOB: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/535 ... end_p2.pdf

Updated strat map:

[hidde]

What to do, what to do?
Questions:
Will the Army of Westmanland be "released" the moment there's no other Swedish army in the territory or will it happen at the end of the phase?
Can an army retreat to a region with a castle even if there's another army already there?
What happens with the commander when an army lead by a named leader dissolves? If the Army of Dalarna gets dissolved will Gustav go home and sulk and not return until the army does?

4.6.2 A newly merged army cannot move that phase.

Does this mean that the merging of two armies happen at the start of a phase? If so, merging can only happen in regions with a castle?

I whish there were enough players for each to lead one or, at most, two specific armies. Strategic decisions becomes harder and more like guesswork when you don't know which player is going to lead which army.

[cavehobbit]

I missed that the army in Stockholm moved to Uppsala and that the beaten Army of Uppsala merge with Army of Västerås in Västerås Castle. I will correct this as soon as I get home later today...

Anders, Army of Westmanland will be "released" at the end of the phase. It is as the end of the phase I check which side control a provinces etc. There are some Armies that are released immediately, like Wermland, Småland etc. which are "released" when a Danish army enters the province.

What happens with the commander when an army lead by a named leader dissolves? If the Army of Dalarna gets dissolved will Gustav go home and sulk and not return until the army does?

Yes, that's correct. It's what happened with the Army of Westra Götaland and their leader. But it's an interesting question. Maybe named commanders leading dissolved armies could be allowed to merge with an another army at a distance of two provinces away?

4.6.2 A newly merged army cannot move that phase.

Does this mean that the merging of two armies happen at the start of a phase? If so, merging can only happen in regions with a castle?

No, merging happens when one army is ordered to merge with another army. The "new" army cannot move, even if the "receiving" army still has not moved. But there could also be more or less unplanned merging of armies. For example, as above, I missed that the Army of Uppsala had orders to merge with Army of Västerås. So the Army of Uppsala withdraws to Västerås castle rather than back to Uppland, and therefore merges with the Army of Västerås. The largest of these armies will keep the name of the army and the other will be removed from the campaign. Ok?

I whish there were enough players for each to lead one or, at most, two specific armies. Strategic decisions becomes harder and more like guesswork when you don't know which player is going to lead which army.

Would you like me to start recruiting new players?
Don't tell me about strategic decisions, I got my head aching when planning orders in GJS'44 at the moment...

[hidde]

Ok, so Army of Stockholm is now in Uppsala and Army of Västerås has swelled but can't attack this turn?
Army of Dalarna, if it stays in Westmanland, can then be attacked by the one army in Sörmland and by both armies in Nerke?
Which brings me to dissolvement If the Army of Dalarna gets dissolved it could reappear in Dalarna, right? But first the Army of Nerke must move, i.e attack and win.
I think it feels odd that Gustav would stay put in Dalarna and not lead the attack...

Anders, Army of Westmanland will be "released" at the end of the phase. It is as the end of the phase I check which side control a provinces etc.

It can take a while then for the Army of Westmanland to enter. The Swedish side have four regions(if you include Westmanland) and four armies right now and have to conquer one more to make space for it...
or have an army dissolved or merge two of them

Would you like me to start recruiting new players?

Well, what do you and the others think about having each player restricted to one or two armies?

[stockwellpete]

I don't mind either way. Maybe a longer-term task for this campaign is to decide how many players it is suitable for? 6 would be probably be right, actually. The slight problem we have here is that Anders and Steve are quite a bit ahead of the rest of us in terms of playing ability. I suppose ideally, these sorts of campaigns work best if the players are roughly all at the same level? The other possibility is that the organiser gets the battles for that phase and then draws the army commanders out of the hat for each battle.

[batesmotel]

Three players per side seems about right for the campaign so far. with more players most players other than the CinC would be sitting on their hands most of the time. The only person who's fought more than one battle in a campaign turn has been Anders as far as I can see (and that may only be because Pete has been AWOL setting up the competitions). The current campaign isn't set up to generate more 2-3 battles a turn so having more players who spend time waiting for a battle to fight sounds rather boring.

Chris

[cavehobbit]

Ok, so Army of Stockholm is now in Uppsala and Army of Västerås has swelled but can't attack this turn?
Army of Dalarna, if it stays in Westmanland, can then be attacked by the one army in Sörmland and by both armies in Nerke?

Hmm... seems I was a bit unclear, sorry. The merge between Uppsala and Västerås happened in the end of phase 2 as a consequence of the two battles. The army in Västerås Castle (still named Army of Västerås as this was the larger of the two merging) will be able to move in phase 3.

Which brings me to dissolvement If the Army of Dalarna gets dissolved it could reappear in Dalarna, right? But first the Army of Nerke must move, i.e attack and win.
I think it feels odd that Gustav would stay put in Dalarna and not lead the attack...

Yes, the Army of Dalarna has put themselves in a difficult situation. You could risk moving Army of Nerke to Wermland and hope they won't mind an army passing through. But then again you risk the Danes invade Dalarna instead...
A problem I been thinking of is that the map is quite small, or at least there are quite few provinces especially when armies needs to withdraw after being defeated. Maybe we could work out a way for armies to merge with armies in provinces they need to withdraw to. This will make remove the dissolve rule. But maybe an army withdrawing into a province with a friendly army suffer some extra penalties in form of losses, or an army always withdrawing will suffer extra losses?
Another idea I've had is to allow Swedish armies to move into provinces like Wermland without the risk of the Army of Wermland won't join the rebellion in the future.

And remember that named commanders can move between armies.

Really complicated situation and lots of unforeseen "problems". As GM I like it, but I can understand the frustration for you as players...
All I have to compare with is the GJS'44 campaign where we are starting to have the same problem with lots on units and nowhere to retreat to. Several units have already been dissolved... (For you interested, here's the situation in this campaign right now: http://slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 20#p421976)

Regarding number of players, it seems most of you think that 3 per side is ok. This is my opinion as well. Pete, as you say, Anders and Steve are quite a bit ahead in term of playing ability. In an ideal world we all would be as good as them and all games would be more balanced...
If it's ok with you I could draw army commanders for each battle.

[stockwellpete]

A problem I been thinking of is that the map is quite small, or at least there are quite few provinces especially when armies needs to withdraw after being defeated. Maybe we could work out a way for armies to merge with armies in provinces they need to withdraw to.
And remember that named commanders can move between armies.

I actually think the map is Ok but there are too many armies. We are trying to represent Medieval Sweden and I don't think each province would have its own big army. Each province would have militia and knights but these would just make up contingents in the larger armies. Maybe the trick will be to write the campaign in such a way that the 6 players each have a leader character, but if that leader character is killed then they are out of the campaign (or they assume the persona of a lesser leader).

[cavehobbit]

I've now updated both the strat map and the OOB in the post above.

I'd like to remind you of the importance in which order you choose to move your armies. Then of course it is randomly decided which side have the initiative. But by careful planning you could disrupt your enemy's plans:

4.4.1 If an attacker is itself attacked before its own attack is executed, it becomes a defender and its offensive is cancelled.

I actually think the map is Ok but there are too many armies. We are trying to represent Medieval Sweden and I don't think each province would have its own big army. Each province would have militia and knights but these would just make up contingents in the larger armies. Maybe the trick will be to write the campaign in such a way that the 6 players each have a leader character, but if that leader character is killed then they are out of the campaign (or they assume the persona of a lesser leader).

Yes, I agree that each province wouldn't have it's own big army. If number of men in a BG would have been of importance in FoG, it would have been interesting to use. The number of different BG's in the different armies are a combination of guessing and a try from my part in an attempt to have some sort of balance. But I've tried to give some Swedish armies more militia and archers/cbows, and less nobles and knights as these provinces (like Wermland and Helsingland) never have had any nobles or important towns.

[hidde]

And remember that named commanders can move between armies.

I have read the rules but poorly...didn't think of that

Maybe we could work out a way for armies to merge with armies in provinces they need to withdraw to.

What about a choice between dissolve like now with the opportunity to come back later, or letting what's left after the dissolvement merge with the army present in the region and further reducement if the numbers exeed 35?

with more players most players other than the CinC would be sitting on their hands most of the time

Yeah, good point. Lets leave it as it is.

[cavehobbit]

Hi,

I have received both sides orders and will have a look at them later today.

/P-A

[cavehobbit]

Sorry about the delay, I had some questions to Steve. But now it seems all is ok and I will combine both sides orders later today.

/P-A

[cavehobbit]

Ok, here are both sides orders. Flipping coin to decide which side has the initiative, Heads=Sweden, Tails=Denmark .... Tails, Denmark has the initiative this round.

Leaders
Danish
1. Bengt Bjugg joins Skane Army.
2. Berend von Malen joins Stockholm Garrison.
3. Hans Brask joins Skane Army.
4. Soren Norby joins Stockholm Garrison.

Swedish
1. Gustav Vasa to Nerke army
2. Lars Siggesson to Gestrikland army
3. Lasse Olsson stay with Dalarna army

Armies
1. Skane Army moves to Westmanland. -- Ok, Skåne Army AFD vs Dalarna Army (AFD because Dalarna Army does not move anywhere)
1) Nerke army moves to Nerke. -- Ok.

2. Bohus Army leaves 10 BGs in Westra Götaland, while the larger part moves to Nerke. -- Ok, Bohus Army ME vs Nerke Army
2) Gestrikland army moves to Uppland. -- Ok, Gestrikland Army ME vs Stockholm Army (ME because Stockholm Army has a move order. Stockholm Army may choose to withdraw to Uppsala Castle, see rule 4.3.3)

3. Nykoping detaches 10 BG's into their province. -- Ok.
3) Dalarna army besieges Västerås. -- Dalarna Army interrupted by Skåne Army, see above. Siege preparations canceled.

4. Linkoping Garrison merges with Nykoping detachment. -- Ok.
4) Helsingland army stays in Helsingland. -- Ok.

5. Orebro Garrison merges with Nykoping Garrison. -- Move pending on outcome of battle between Bohus Army and Nerke Army.

6. Vastera defends. -- Ok.

7. Stockholm attacks Gestrikland. -- Move canceled as Gestrikland Army moves into Uppland before Stockholm Army moves.

8. Kalmar defends. -- Ok.


Confirmed battles:
Westmanland -- Skåne Army AFD vs Dalarna Army
Nerke -- Bohus Army ME vs Nerke Army
Uppland -- Gestrikland Army ME vs Stockholm Army

Anders, I need to know who will command which army this round.
Steve, send me a list which of Bohus BGs will be staying in Westra Götaland. This new army will be named 2nd Army of Bohus (lack of imagination... ). I also need to know who will command Bohus Army, although I'm sure from the list you sent me earlier.

I will begin preparing the battles tomorrow. It's getting a bit too late for me today.

[cavehobbit]

Westmanland -- Skåne Army AFD vs Dalarna Army
Nerke -- Bohus Army ME vs Nerke Army
Uppland -- Gestrikland Army ME vs Stockholm Army

I forgot I need lists of which 20 BG's will fight in the battles (Dalarna excluded as it has only 20 BG's).
Here's the updated OOB: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/535 ... OOB_p3.pdf

Updated Strat map:

[cavehobbit]

All three battles are now ready to be played!

Westmanland -- Skåne Army (Batesmotel) AFD vs Dalarna Army (Stockwellpete) https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/535 ... 8P3%29.zip
Nerke -- Bohus Army (Turk1964) ME vs Nerke Army (Hidde) https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/535 ... 8P3%29.zip
Uppland -- Gestrikland Army (Voskarp) ME vs Stockholm Army (Pantherboy) https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/535 ... 8P3%29.zip

If you have problem downloading and installing, please send me a pm.
Remember to check if I've made some error in the set up of BG's.

Good luck and remember to have fun!

Cheers,
P-A