Vokt (axis) vs Plaid (allies) 3.10 AAR

After action reports for Commander Europe at War.

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petertodd
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Re: Plaid vs Vokt CEAW GS 3.2 beta AAR

Post by petertodd » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:40 am

Prior to 3.2 I believe it was impossible to bomb Berlin from England even with all upgrades. I see in this game that Berlin is near zero production in early 1943, so I presume a strat range of 20 (the min distance from England to Berlin) is now reached with some intermediate upgrade. This seems like a very significant factor that would definitely affect the game balance.

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Re: Plaid vs Vokt CEAW GS 3.2 beta AAR

Post by Plaid » Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:54 am

duncanr wrote:cheap FTRs will allow axis to have superiority for longer - not sure thats a good thing,but then I haven't played 3.2
I don't think that 5 PPs matter at all. And if they do, that would benefit USSR more than any other power. They suffer the heaviest fighter casualties and need high numbers to challenge Luftwaffe.
In general allies combined have much more fighters than axis.

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Re: Plaid vs Vokt CEAW GS 3.2 beta AAR

Post by Cybvep » Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:34 am

I don't think that 5 PPs matter at all. And if they do, that would benefit USSR more than any other power.
Agreed.

Maybe lower survivability tech gain of STRATs? It won't matter much when STRATs are escorted, but it will make it more hazardous to send unescorted STRATs.

I don't think that major changes are needed ATM. 12 corps lost per winter campaign is simply unsustainable for the Axis. And despite that, Plaid is not defeated yet.

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Re: Plaid vs Vokt CEAW GS 3.2 beta AAR

Post by GogTheMild » Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:13 am

For what it's worth I agree with Cybvep. Unescorted Strats do seem to have an unrealistically high survivability. This wasn't so much of an issue with their old ranges, but now . . .
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Re: Plaid vs Vokt CEAW GS 3.2 beta AAR

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:49 am

The strat survivability doesn't matter much in this game since Plaid hasn't had German fighters in Norway to intercept. It's only against the FLAK the strats have taken losses. Vokt will have to tell how many step losses the strats have taken in the bombing raids.

I would think 1-3 step losses per attack from flak is pretty normal. I'm not sure about the flak level from cities. It can be increased with radar tech.

We haven't changed the survivability from GS v3.1 so the losses should be the same.

One downside with longer air ranges is that fighters can be lured into intercepting more eaasily. So if you want to cover e. g. Berlin, but don't want the fighters to be wasted on intercepting bomber raids further west then the fighters will have to be based quite far east.

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Re: Plaid vs Vokt CEAW GS 3.2 beta AAR

Post by Plaid » Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:49 pm

I had fighters in Germany for some time, but all what they did was scoring more or less even rolls vs escorted attacks, so I dismissed them to other fronts.

It's true that basing fighters further east can help to defend central Germany, it's just poor planning on my side. Placing italian/axis minor battered air units on top of resources also could help.
Axis prioritised wrong builds in this match, so I ended with lots of bombers (grounded and can't pay for repairs) and not enough fighters.
Same for tanks - I had 6, but they did little damage and constantly received hits from Soviet bombers.

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Re: Plaid vs Vokt CEAW GS 3.2 beta AAR

Post by Cybvep » Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:24 pm

I had fighters in Germany for some time, but all what they did was scoring more or less even rolls vs escorted attacks, so I dismissed them to other fronts.

It's true that basing fighters further east can help to defend central Germany, it's just poor planning on my side. Placing italian/axis minor battered air units on top of resources also could help.
The Axis can also place German FTRs on sentry in important cities/resources. That way it will only be possible to attack them once and it will only be possible to bomb a given hex once.

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Re: Plaid vs Vokt CEAW GS 3.2 beta AAR

Post by Vokt » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:25 pm

More expensive strats also might help. I think that now strats are really powerful units. It's not only the bombings of German resources but also their value to suppress axis units from doing counterattacks when used in ground attack missions. 1 hit from a strat usually drops efficiency a lot, so 2 hits quite often leave the attacked unit with effectiveness below 20. To this it would have to add the steps of strength taken. As a result, allied landings and operations result much safer and the threat of strong axis counterattacks is much reduced. Also, more expensive strats (let's say 115-120 PP's) would mean more costly allied strategic campaigns because of the repairings.

On the other hand, the fact that now allied bombers are able to reach Berlin by 1943 reflects what happens in real war since RAF was able to make a raid over Berlin (with more psychological effects than damage done) quite early in the war. In older versions, allies had to rebase bombers to France if they want to bomb Berlin. That didn't reflect what happened in the real allied strategic campaign.

I'm suggesting this little changes in cost of units because they sound to me as the easiest way (and maybe the more effective) to deal with things like this. I remember that the most effective way to deal with things like armoured or sub blobs was to put limits per year when purchasing certain kind of units. In current game, since soviets have had 10 mech units right from 1941 (initial 6 plus 4 from Siberian reserves), the increased cost of that kind of units because of exceeding per year limit (82.5 PP's in 1942 if I remember well) have kept them from purchasing mechs until 1943.
Last edited by Vokt on Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Plaid vs Vokt CEAW GS 3.2 beta AAR

Post by Cybvep » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:28 pm

STRATs are already the most expensive air units. I don't think that we need to change their cost. As I said before, if anything needs to be changed, it's their survivability.

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Re: Plaid vs Vokt CEAW GS 3.2 beta AAR

Post by GogTheMild » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:44 pm

Cybvep wrote:STRATs are already the most expensive air units. I don't think that we need to change their cost. As I said before, if anything needs to be changed, it's their survivability.
Yep. It seems to me that they are more effective early on than they were historically, and less vulnerable. Which I suppose is another way of saying that they are too good for what you pay for them :lol: .
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Re: Plaid vs Vokt CEAW GS 3.2 beta AAR

Post by Plaid » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:52 pm

I would say STRAT might have reduced survivability vs fighter (same way as DDs have increased survivability vs subs), but thats all.
Price increases of any sort will hit both sides and its a question who will suffer more.

Also I don't think that things should be judged on this match alone. In retrospective I think there are ways to prevent Germany bombed into red production in early 1943, they just were not implemented here. Game should be played differently than previous version.
Last edited by Plaid on Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Plaid vs Vokt CEAW GS 3.2 beta AAR

Post by Vokt » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:56 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:The strat survivability doesn't matter much in this game since Plaid hasn't had German fighters in Norway to intercept. It's only against the FLAK the strats have taken losses. Vokt will have to tell how many step losses the strats have taken in the bombing raids.

I would think 1-3 step losses per attack from flak is pretty normal. I'm not sure about the flak level from cities. It can be increased with radar tech.

We haven't changed the survivability from GS v3.1 so the losses should be the same.
Strat losses from FLAK have been the typical ones. Before reaching +2 survivability upgrade (that if I remember correctly comes with level 3) bomber losses were relatively high with some strikes even getting 3 steps lost when bombing Hamburg (German capitals had then +4 air defense). After that upgrade, allied bombers rarely lose more than 1 step when bombing. My opinion is that a change in the survivability of the strats could affect much more game balance than an increased cost of the units. A poor survivability in mid-late game would mean that strats would be getting 2-3 steps lost (or even 4) on raids over Germany resources. This would require a continuous repairing of air units that e.g. UK would barely be able to keep.
Stauffenberg wrote:One downside with longer air ranges is that fighters can be lured into intercepting more eaasily. So if you want to cover e. g. Berlin, but don't want the fighters to be wasted on intercepting bomber raids further west then the fighters will have to be based quite far east.
I have checked this recently and to station German fighters in cities like Breslau or Prague would work on that way. So if Germany can deploy let's say, 3-4 fighters in those places with a commander attached to raise effectiveness, that should keep the allied bombers far from doing early bombings of Berlin and Hamburg.

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Plaid vs Vokt CEAW GS 3.2 beta AAR

Post by Vokt » Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:31 pm

Turn 69. May 23, 1943.

Eastern front Axis turn. Germans started a withdrawal in the central sector of the front:

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Eastern front Allies turn. Red Army destroyed 2 German corps east of Dnepropetrovsk:

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Med Axis turn. Free French mech was killed due to Axis air attack:

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Med Allies turn. Allies tried to weaken Axis air forces in Italy by attacking their air bases. Cagliari still holds:

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Western front. Allied bombings focussed this turn in oil plants whilst USAF tacs kept on harassing German units in France:

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Last edited by Vokt on Fri May 26, 2017 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Plaid vs Vokt CEAW GS 3.2 beta AAR

Post by Vokt » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:21 pm

Turn 70. June 12, 1943.

Western front Allies turn. Allies finally decided to launch Overlord’43. After several turns, no major concentration of Wehrmacht units has been spotted in France at least within the current 9-hexes spotting range of strat units. Operation started with an paratrooper dropping in Cotentin peninsula :

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Eastern front Axis turn. Wehrmacht launched a counterattack SE of Dnepropetrovsk that killed 2 Soviet corps and restablished front line as it was in last turn:

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Eastern front Allies turn. Red Army regained again position lost in Axis turn, destroying Romanian and German corps. Furthermore, nearby German armoured units got significantly weakened due to VVS tacs bombings:

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Med Axis turn. Luftwaffe, in cooperation with Italian subs, tried to sink Allied DD providing supply in Sardinia. They nearly succeeded since Allied naval unit held but at very low strength. Canadian corps in the northern tip of the island survived again to Axis air attacks:

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Med Allies turn. Free French finally took Cagliari this making 3rd Italian surrender city. Many naval and air attacks to Axis air units in Italy:

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Last edited by Vokt on Fri May 26, 2017 3:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Morris
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Re: Plaid vs Vokt CEAW GS 3.2 beta AAR

Post by Morris » Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:25 am

it seems all discussion in this pbem are concentrate to airforce . But it seems the wolf packs are quite silence in Altlantic ? Where are they ? Did Axis subs on vacation ? :)

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Re: Plaid vs Vokt CEAW GS 3.2 beta AAR

Post by Morris » Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:29 am

Stauffenberg wrote:It's a bad idea in any version.
Do agree ! but an 1942 Barbarosa in Europe fortress strategy maybe an exception .

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Re: Plaid vs Vokt CEAW GS 3.2 beta AAR

Post by Morris » Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:31 am

BTW , Berlin & Humburg were bombed to red in early 1943 is really unrealistic ! :(

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Re: Plaid vs Vokt CEAW GS 3.2 beta AAR

Post by Cybvep » Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:29 am

Morris wrote:BTW , Berlin & Humburg were bombed to red in early 1943 is really unrealistic ! :(
How so? The Axis has 0 fighters in the region.

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Re: Plaid vs Vokt CEAW GS 3.2 beta AAR

Post by Morris » Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:15 pm

Cybvep wrote:
Morris wrote:BTW , Berlin & Humburg were bombed to red in early 1943 is really unrealistic ! :(
How so? The Axis has 0 fighters in the region.
but in 3.1 , even if there is no Luftwaffe ftr cover , Berlin will also be safe from air raid since it is out of the Allies STR's attack range .

in 1943 , the allies's STR usually at lvl 4 , the attack range is 17 ,even if you deploy it east of London , It still can not attack Berlin by 17 hex attack range . :)

In real history , in 1943 , Berlin had been attacked , but it still had huge production power until late 1944 .

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Re: Plaid vs Vokt CEAW GS 3.2 beta AAR

Post by Cybvep » Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:38 pm

In real history , in 1943 , Berlin had been attacked , but it still had huge production power until late 1944 .
Yes, but the Luftwaffe was protecting German cities with interceptors (and AAs). In this game Plaid is not doing it, so you cannot really compare the two situations.

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