Thru the Maginot: Strategic Europa (aar stopped)
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Thru the Maginot: Strategic Europa (aar stopped)
Hello all.
I just started a game with a very capable opponent, Carlos Danger. This should be interesting.
Settings are minor advantage axis, we both want to see how this is going to go down.
STRATEGIC EUROPA OVERVIEW
I wont, for obvious reasons, divulge the entire strategy behind the thinking, but I will start by giving the broad outlines. When it becomes obvious on what i'll do i'll divulge more.
Anyway, the general idea behind this new strategy has been born out of this belief that something fundamental has changed for the axis. Its now impossible to position yourself early in the game in such a way as to win the game in the long run. Simply explained, my aggressive strategy doesn't work as well anymore. Also, every single opponent I play against expect the moves I am going to make (example Sealion)...
So now I would like to try something new, and try to surprise my opponent at a couple turns, instead of operating on a shoestring (well maybe a little ...)like I usually do. Bottom line is: Sound, reasonable and cautiously aggressive play. I stated many times on the forums that I can play this, and now I will show it.
Ok, so to the thinking itself. The germans loose the game on a strategic level, I think everyone will agree on that. The traditional approach to this quandary is a tactical response. Kill everything in your path till 1942 then switch to the defense. There isn't much else you can do. But what if there is something else to try?
So I went on the drawing board to see if I could position and play the germans on a strategic thinking form the outset instead of a traditional defensive-offensive way of thinking.
So hence the goals of this game:
Goal #1: Strategically neutralize the british well into 1943 which should then give time for the Axis to complete objective #2 (the main one) in the east
Goal #2: Partially neutralize the Russians on a strategic level, and to be on the offensive with the germans for the full 1943 year.
Goal #3: "fortress" myself into conquered territory while trying to continue the strategic neutralization of the allies.
Also note that this game is live (I did turn 3 tonite) so I don't know if it will result in a positive outcome. So it isn't a fixed outcome, we'll see what I cana chieve with this plan together.
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Berghoff mansion, mid September 1939.
A decent and warm fire was chasing the moisture out of the big and impressive mantion. The meeting of 3 people was being held in the great hall of the german dictator. Rebuilt in 1935, it was a magnificent work. Incredible view on the mountains, woodwork everywhere, magnificent draperies, cozy rugs, fireplaces in every room. It had all the trappings of power.
Of that (power), the german dictator had a lot. He was currently presiding a meeting with 2 of his army generals. Hitler was clad in his civician outfit, since early in the war he was still seen in politician clothes. Not until later that he would almost exclusively dress as a military man.
Adolf was not in a great mood. Hitler was, first and foremost, determined to command personally. According to his so-called Leader Principle (Führerprinzip), ultimate authority rested with him and extended downward. At each level, the superior was to give the orders, the subordinates to follow them to the letter. In practice the command relationships were more subtle and complex, especially at the lower levels, but Hitler did have the final say on any subject in which he took a direct interest, including the details of military operations, that is, the actual direction of armies in the field. Today was one of those day.
He was determined to have his way on the western offensive strategy. HJe also wanted to bring the war to the frenchs as soon as possible. in his mind, this meant now.
The polish campaign was drawing to a close with a surprisingly swift and positive outcome, and now he was determined to give the same medicine to the French. Main topic of contention with his generals: Most of the german army was in the east or on rails on the way back to face the new enemy. The general staff preferred caution. The German Army had just expended nearly all of its available resources to mount the amazing Blitzkrieg attack on Poland and badly needed a few months to regroup, refit and resupply. Right now, German soldiers were simply not ready to leave Poland and abruptly turn westward to fight the French and British. The generals even worried that another drawn-out battle of attrition in France, similar to the First World War, could easily unfold if they rushed into things without adequate preparation.
After hours of discussion, Hitler was still adamant. There would be an attack on France, even if the army only had 2 corps available and several division. In Adolf's mind, this would suffice since german character was so superior to the French. The argument was getting heated. We were still early in the war, and generals still had a little bit of flamboyance left against the reich dictator, unlike most of them later (only the likes of Guderian and Manstein would still oppose hitler in the later years)
Still hoping to persuade the Führer to postpone the attack on France indefinitely, two of its highest ranking generals, Army Commander-in-Chief, Walther von Brauchitsch, and Chief of the General Staff, Franz Halder, had been at this, working hard with their arguments. The table was strewn with maps and coffee mugs, ever a proof of the long discussions. They presented solid facts and figures supporting their contention that a major delay was needed.
The first general was commander-in-chief of the german army. Ever the professional soldier, he had been bumping heads with hitler on a more frequent basis as war approached. Brauchitsch a career military man that joined the army in 1910, went thru World War 1 unscathed and was made a general in the twenties. He was the example of proffesionnalism in the german army. Halder, another brilliant mind, was also a soldier that had been thru WW1. Both generals, clad in their medals and neat uniform, still looked sharp after the long tirade with Hitler.
"Mein Fuhrer, we are at a time where it would be hazardous to venture into this attack while our forces are not ready" interjected Halder. "The plan of attack thru Belgium is sound and should give us results in the summer of 1940." he threw his hand out in a grand gesture to emphasize his arguments.
"You generals don't understand" started to babble Hitler. You were not in the trench in front of Verdun like me. I was a soldier, decorated as you know, and I understand better than anyone the horror of trench warfare" finished Hitler with an angry look
"But mein Fuhrer", feebly tried Brauchitsch, you cannot possibly think that a frontal attack on France thru the Maginot line is sound strategic thinking", the commander in chief continued with an ever weakening voice... He could see Hitler's anger coming to a close. Then the dictator made a wide gesture of the hand, surprisingly keeping his calm:
"You are dismissed" he said drily. "The stain on german honor that is Verun will be the first area to fall to german arms" He continued with a strong -willed voice. "I know how to take it, and we will by sheer force of will" He ended his quick tirade by a now go away hand gesture.
The 2 generals left the great meeting hall with their tails between their legs. The dice had now been trown: the germans were heading for the Maginot.
High-command meeting, before Polish campaign
Victorious tank platoon after polish conquest
Reichenau in the field facing the Maginot line explaning to the dictator his plans to realize Adolf's wishes
Great meeting hall at the Bergoff
Late 1939, Albert Speer exposing his views on his proposed "strategic execution" of the war
I just started a game with a very capable opponent, Carlos Danger. This should be interesting.
Settings are minor advantage axis, we both want to see how this is going to go down.
STRATEGIC EUROPA OVERVIEW
I wont, for obvious reasons, divulge the entire strategy behind the thinking, but I will start by giving the broad outlines. When it becomes obvious on what i'll do i'll divulge more.
Anyway, the general idea behind this new strategy has been born out of this belief that something fundamental has changed for the axis. Its now impossible to position yourself early in the game in such a way as to win the game in the long run. Simply explained, my aggressive strategy doesn't work as well anymore. Also, every single opponent I play against expect the moves I am going to make (example Sealion)...
So now I would like to try something new, and try to surprise my opponent at a couple turns, instead of operating on a shoestring (well maybe a little ...)like I usually do. Bottom line is: Sound, reasonable and cautiously aggressive play. I stated many times on the forums that I can play this, and now I will show it.
Ok, so to the thinking itself. The germans loose the game on a strategic level, I think everyone will agree on that. The traditional approach to this quandary is a tactical response. Kill everything in your path till 1942 then switch to the defense. There isn't much else you can do. But what if there is something else to try?
So I went on the drawing board to see if I could position and play the germans on a strategic thinking form the outset instead of a traditional defensive-offensive way of thinking.
So hence the goals of this game:
Goal #1: Strategically neutralize the british well into 1943 which should then give time for the Axis to complete objective #2 (the main one) in the east
Goal #2: Partially neutralize the Russians on a strategic level, and to be on the offensive with the germans for the full 1943 year.
Goal #3: "fortress" myself into conquered territory while trying to continue the strategic neutralization of the allies.
Also note that this game is live (I did turn 3 tonite) so I don't know if it will result in a positive outcome. So it isn't a fixed outcome, we'll see what I cana chieve with this plan together.
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Berghoff mansion, mid September 1939.
A decent and warm fire was chasing the moisture out of the big and impressive mantion. The meeting of 3 people was being held in the great hall of the german dictator. Rebuilt in 1935, it was a magnificent work. Incredible view on the mountains, woodwork everywhere, magnificent draperies, cozy rugs, fireplaces in every room. It had all the trappings of power.
Of that (power), the german dictator had a lot. He was currently presiding a meeting with 2 of his army generals. Hitler was clad in his civician outfit, since early in the war he was still seen in politician clothes. Not until later that he would almost exclusively dress as a military man.
Adolf was not in a great mood. Hitler was, first and foremost, determined to command personally. According to his so-called Leader Principle (Führerprinzip), ultimate authority rested with him and extended downward. At each level, the superior was to give the orders, the subordinates to follow them to the letter. In practice the command relationships were more subtle and complex, especially at the lower levels, but Hitler did have the final say on any subject in which he took a direct interest, including the details of military operations, that is, the actual direction of armies in the field. Today was one of those day.
He was determined to have his way on the western offensive strategy. HJe also wanted to bring the war to the frenchs as soon as possible. in his mind, this meant now.
The polish campaign was drawing to a close with a surprisingly swift and positive outcome, and now he was determined to give the same medicine to the French. Main topic of contention with his generals: Most of the german army was in the east or on rails on the way back to face the new enemy. The general staff preferred caution. The German Army had just expended nearly all of its available resources to mount the amazing Blitzkrieg attack on Poland and badly needed a few months to regroup, refit and resupply. Right now, German soldiers were simply not ready to leave Poland and abruptly turn westward to fight the French and British. The generals even worried that another drawn-out battle of attrition in France, similar to the First World War, could easily unfold if they rushed into things without adequate preparation.
After hours of discussion, Hitler was still adamant. There would be an attack on France, even if the army only had 2 corps available and several division. In Adolf's mind, this would suffice since german character was so superior to the French. The argument was getting heated. We were still early in the war, and generals still had a little bit of flamboyance left against the reich dictator, unlike most of them later (only the likes of Guderian and Manstein would still oppose hitler in the later years)
Still hoping to persuade the Führer to postpone the attack on France indefinitely, two of its highest ranking generals, Army Commander-in-Chief, Walther von Brauchitsch, and Chief of the General Staff, Franz Halder, had been at this, working hard with their arguments. The table was strewn with maps and coffee mugs, ever a proof of the long discussions. They presented solid facts and figures supporting their contention that a major delay was needed.
The first general was commander-in-chief of the german army. Ever the professional soldier, he had been bumping heads with hitler on a more frequent basis as war approached. Brauchitsch a career military man that joined the army in 1910, went thru World War 1 unscathed and was made a general in the twenties. He was the example of proffesionnalism in the german army. Halder, another brilliant mind, was also a soldier that had been thru WW1. Both generals, clad in their medals and neat uniform, still looked sharp after the long tirade with Hitler.
"Mein Fuhrer, we are at a time where it would be hazardous to venture into this attack while our forces are not ready" interjected Halder. "The plan of attack thru Belgium is sound and should give us results in the summer of 1940." he threw his hand out in a grand gesture to emphasize his arguments.
"You generals don't understand" started to babble Hitler. You were not in the trench in front of Verdun like me. I was a soldier, decorated as you know, and I understand better than anyone the horror of trench warfare" finished Hitler with an angry look
"But mein Fuhrer", feebly tried Brauchitsch, you cannot possibly think that a frontal attack on France thru the Maginot line is sound strategic thinking", the commander in chief continued with an ever weakening voice... He could see Hitler's anger coming to a close. Then the dictator made a wide gesture of the hand, surprisingly keeping his calm:
"You are dismissed" he said drily. "The stain on german honor that is Verun will be the first area to fall to german arms" He continued with a strong -willed voice. "I know how to take it, and we will by sheer force of will" He ended his quick tirade by a now go away hand gesture.
The 2 generals left the great meeting hall with their tails between their legs. The dice had now been trown: the germans were heading for the Maginot.
High-command meeting, before Polish campaign
Victorious tank platoon after polish conquest
Reichenau in the field facing the Maginot line explaning to the dictator his plans to realize Adolf's wishes
Great meeting hall at the Bergoff
Late 1939, Albert Speer exposing his views on his proposed "strategic execution" of the war
Last edited by supermax on Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Thru the Maginot: Strategic Europa (no Carlos pls)
Do you mean you want to defeat France without Dow Belgium & Holland ??!! It is really a great challenge to Axis . If you really achive this . It will be a victory of revolution !
Re: Thru the Maginot: Strategic Europa (no Carlos pls)
I don't think that it's his goal. I think that he will wear the French down in the Maginot Line and then attack Belgium. He will give the French Verdun and THEN attack through the North. The French will be weaker than usual. Yes, the Germans will suffer losses, too, but Supermax wrote that he is not thinking about short-term goals like grand tactical victories, but long-term, strategic goals. Also, minor Axis advantage - a nice bonus.
Re: Thru the Maginot: Strategic Europa (no Carlos pls)
Cybvep wrote:I don't think that it's his goal. I think that he will wear the French down in the Maginot Line and then attack Belgium. He will give the French Verdun and THEN attack through the North. The French will be weaker than usual. Yes, the Germans will suffer losses, too, but Supermax wrote that he is not thinking about short-term goals like grand tactical victories, but long-term, strategic goals. Also, minor Axis advantage - a nice bonus.
Exactly my line of thoughts. Of course i will try to storm the maginot, but the ultimate goal is to try to get out of the impossible situation the germans are in the north: allies know they are coming, they either do the dyle or else put themselves on the frontier thus leaving no option for forward retreat.
Now, with this plan, the french are being worn down and they know what when when the right hook comes theyll be finished.
Ive tried this in my last game against crazygunner and it worked like a charm.
The french will repair their land and airforce, as well as the brits. Ultimate result will be no new units for the french and british a lot weaker because they spend a ton of pp on repairing their plane.
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Re: Thru the Maginot: Strategic Europa (no Carlos pls)
This has always been the problem, highlighted best by Morris's last aar, that the allies know the Germans are fully committed to the invasion of Poland. It had seemed to me that attacking in the south had to be more aggressively done in some way, or at least made an option, to keep the Allies guessing where the punch finally comes.
Have you bought labs? More air on the way? PP into replacements instead?
Have you bought labs? More air on the way? PP into replacements instead?
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Re: Thru the Maginot: Strategic Europa (no Carlos pls)
Not even with using air and mechs can you get some sort of odds in the bad weather?
Re: Thru the Maginot: Strategic Europa (no Carlos pls)
I have a lab in each INF, arm, air and general. No naval yet.Blathergut wrote:This has always been the problem, highlighted best by Morris's last aar, that the allies know the Germans are fully committed to the invasion of Poland. It had seemed to me that attacking in the south had to be more aggressively done in some way, or at least made an option, to keep the Allies guessing where the punch finally comes.
Have you bought labs? More air on the way? PP into replacements instead?
Re: Thru the Maginot: Strategic Europa (no Carlos pls)
Well if anything but a mech I would have tried it. It doesn't really matter, if you look closely ive already destroyed 3 GAR and 1 MECH. The French also committed a MECH and an INF to the Maginot line defense, There wont be anything heavy in the north when Spring comes.Blathergut wrote:Not even with using air and mechs can you get some sort of odds in the bad weather?
As I said the goal isn't really to storm Maginot, but to keep French busy in the south to get me some option.
Re: Thru the Maginot: Strategic Europa (no Carlos pls)
No BEF expected? The British should be able to make up 3 GAR and 1 MECH fairly easily. Of course someone may be thinking SeaLion or an even more outlandish invasion?
Quite a novel AAR so far, and not a bad re-enactment of the First World War. Can you post a casualty screen at some point?
Quite a novel AAR so far, and not a bad re-enactment of the First World War. Can you post a casualty screen at some point?
Re: Thru the Maginot: Strategic Europa (no Carlos pls)
I hope the brits will put their troops into France. Well in fact they did , I saw their transport with my subs.
While I am not looking for a full-on sealion, I have certain... ideas against the brits, so the more troops they loose in France the better.
While I am not looking for a full-on sealion, I have certain... ideas against the brits, so the more troops they loose in France the better.
Re: Thru the Maginot: Strategic Europa (no Carlos pls)
Brave german forces facing the formidable Maginot line defense. No one could claim it is easy. The Fuhrer has however decreed that german will must triumph
In this photo direct from the propaganda ministry, german forces taken in action while taking over a French fort position.
Artist depiction of an assault on the Maginot line, distributed across Germany on leaflets to boost morale and show the strongness of german forces.
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Re: Thru the Maginot: Strategic Europa (no Carlos pls)
Like Max said going through the Maginot line is a good way to drain the French forces. With this strategy it is probably normal to have a surrender of France in April or May. BEF in France will of course delay but still not long enough to negate the threat of Sealion.
It might also be that this is a good counter against Dyle plan.
But why did you decide to have the axis advantage Max? Will it even be a challange then?
It might also be that this is a good counter against Dyle plan.
But why did you decide to have the axis advantage Max? Will it even be a challange then?
Re: Thru the Maginot: Strategic Europa (no Carlos pls)
It's a test. He probably wants to see what the Axis is capable of with Minor Advantage.
Re: Thru the Maginot: Strategic Europa (no Carlos pls)
Axis minor advantage gives Germany 3 and Italy 1 PP's base per turn.This can be affected by war effort.
Re: Thru the Maginot: Strategic Europa (no Carlos pls)
Craz
That minot advantage is so minor that so far i cant see one spec of a difference with our game
Revenue seems the same? I get 74 a turn without denmark
So dont see any thing?
That minot advantage is so minor that so far i cant see one spec of a difference with our game
Revenue seems the same? I get 74 a turn without denmark
So dont see any thing?