FoGN2 - Skirmishers

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shadowdragon
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FoGN2 - Skirmishers

Post by shadowdragon »

I had originally posted this query in the beta section of the forum before I knew that Rich didn't have access to the beta section:

"To clarify - I understand that the proposed change is to eliminate the skirmish formation for both regular and irregular light infantry...not just regular light infantry. Are irregular light cavalry still considered in skirmish formation?"

Brett's reply:
BrettPT wrote:There will be no such thing a 'skirmish' formation in v2. Skirmishers are companies of invisible little chaps running around in front of your (reformed, LI or skirmisher attachment) infantry units that allow your infantry to shoot at medium range.

Regular LI are just like reformed infantry, except they have 5 dice at medium range and their movement is not slowed in bad terrain.
We have some special rules for Irreg LC and Irreg LI, but they are not 'skirmishers; as such.
You are only partially correct with respect to skirmishers as companies of....running around in front of your....infantry.

That describes what Bressonet / Marbot terms "tirailleurs de marche et de combat", which scout during the march and cover formed infantry during combat where companies were selected from their parent formations to support battalions, regiments, brigades or even divisions. It does not describe "tirailleurs en grande bande", which form a "corps principal"..."meaning a cohesive command (a battalion-sized formation or larger) capable of independent action. However, it seems that the circumstances where "tirailleurs en grande bande" would be used were relatively rare and typically used in restrictive terrain where formed supports weren't viable. There's some good discussions on the Napoleon Series site:

http://www.napoleon-series.org/cgi-bin/ ... d;id=39319
http://www.napoleon-series.org/cgi-bin/ ... d;id=36463

Having noted the distinction, it's also worth noting that the concept for FoGN is that FoGN infantry units are composed of several battalions which are arranged by the unit commander according to circumstances. Players arrange the units in "tactical" or "extended" formation which represents the foot print of the unit and not necessarily the formation of the constituent battalions. Presumably a light infantry unit in restrictive terrain may likely have "tirailleurs en grande bande". So, as long as the unit has appropriate factors the rules have accounted for this use of light infantry. However, it's worth looking a French revolutionary armies - not something with which I'm all that familiar - to see if the revised rules handle these appropriately as these armies seem to be the origin of the "tirailleurs en grande bande" formation. I think there's a mention of revolutionary armies in one of the Napoleon Series discussions.

I hope that's useful.
richafricanus
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Re: FoGN2 - Skirmishers

Post by richafricanus »

ShadowD, Thanks for carrying this discussion across onto here.

Yes, we discussed that there are probably some unusual formations/ troop types in the French Revolutionary armies and we decided rather than create a whole new troop type for them, we would cover them in the specific lists, possibly to be Irregular infantry with the ability to evade, like Cossacks. This is a good prompt for us to think that through now to a specific proposal. I'll chat to Brett. Any ideas on how to handle them are welcome.
shadowdragon
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Re: FoGN2 - Skirmishers

Post by shadowdragon »

richafricanus wrote:ShadowD, Thanks for carrying this discussion across onto here.

Yes, we discussed that there are probably some unusual formations/ troop types in the French Revolutionary armies and we decided rather than create a whole new troop type for them, we would cover them in the specific lists, possibly to be Irregular infantry with the ability to evade, like Cossacks. This is a good prompt for us to think that through now to a specific proposal. I'll chat to Brett. Any ideas on how to handle them are welcome.
Okay.

Had a ok at light infantry movement - especially in rough / difficult terrain. The extended line movement would have one believe that they'd be trying to maintained formed battalions in line versus an extended line of skirmishers with supports or even a tirailleurs en grande bande. It's as if they forgotten they're light infantry. Something I suggest needs rethinking.
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Re: FoGN2 - Skirmishers

Post by richafricanus »

Shadow, sorry, I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying in this last point.
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Re: FoGN2 - Skirmishers

Post by shadowdragon »

richafricanus wrote:Shadow, sorry, I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying in this last point.
The movement rate for light infantry in extended line in rough/ difficult terrain is the same as reformed infantry infantry and less than unreformed infantry. If one accepts the notion that the position and formation of battalions within a FoGN unit is somewhat at the discretion of the unit commander, then one would presume that light infantry unit in rough / difficult terrain in extended line is not trying to preserve a line of formed battalions but rather a skirmish line backed by small groups of support along the length of the extended line foot print. That is their training after all.

I suppose that it's okay that light infantry (even from unreformed armies) in extended line moving slower than extended line unreformed infantry, but to be as slow as the slowest in rough / difficult?

I had thought that the compensation for getting rid of the skirmish formation was movement benefits for light infantry. I see that this has been done for tactical but not extended line. So, I'm suggesting these should be looked at again.
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Re: FoGN2 - Skirmishers

Post by richafricanus »

Ah okay, got it! Yes, I tend to agree. We should probably make Light Inf in extended line move 3MU through rough and 2MU through difficult.
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Re: FoGN2 - Skirmishers

Post by BrettPT »

Good point. I agree as well. Let's chalk in a speed boost for LI extended lines in terrain.
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Re: FoGN2 - Skirmishers

Post by shadowdragon »

BrettPT wrote:Good point. I agree as well. Let's chalk in a speed boost for LI extended lines in terrain.
Might I suggest that the move for light infantry in extended line be 4/4/3 or 4/4/2?

Arguments for that are:

1) Light infantry in terrain will predominantly be in skirmisher order - perhaps as much or even more than 50% of the unit. Light infantry in terrain should be as fast or faster than any other type of infantry in the same formation (tactical or extended line). That is one of their primary functions.

2) They shouldn't move as fast as in tactical due to the wider front that needs to be controlled but it should be proportional to the tactical formation speed in terrain - 2/3 of the tactical speed is 4 / 4 / 2.67, which I've rounded to either 4 /4 / 3 or 4 / 4 / 2.

3) Light infantry, that are part of unreformed armies, should move as fast as their line infantry brethren in the open and in extended line.

Arguments against:

4) Light infantry, that are part of reformed armies, shouldn't move faster than than their line brethren in the open and in extended line.

With regards to point 4 perhaps that won't occur that often. If a reformed army's battle plan requires its light infantry to be in the open and in extended line, they're probably losing anyway.

For your consideration.
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Re: FoGN2 - Skirmishers

Post by richafricanus »

Might I suggest that the move for light infantry in extended line be 4/4/3 or 4/4/2?
I think this makes sense. I'd be going with 4/4/2. Couldn't have them moving faster in difficult in line than in tactical. And I agree that while this means Reformed LI in line move faster than other Reformed in Line, this is a rare occurrence anyway.
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