Gwaylare wrote: ↑Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:48 pm
But for example the navy in Italy, which is able to supress a Panther completely, so that he has to surrender to recon
is just to much.
So, how would you implement effects of a massive naval bombardment on a single Panther unit? I mean hey, those are some huge shells.
For example, Bismarck main caliber had shells like 800 kg (compare it to 25 kg shell of an IS-2). Even if direct hits are rare, those Panthers would find themselves quite shaken, with broken communications, and standing in terrain resembling lunar landscape.
I think, surrender to recon is a separate issue, because if this happens to you, you probably won't care much how exactly Panther was suppressed to such a high degree. In Panzer Corps 2 we are doing some tweaks in this department, so that even fully suppressed units do not surrender to something which does not pose a serious enough threat to them.
Gwaylare wrote: ↑Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:48 pm
Artillery (especicially self-propelled) already has a major impact on the battlefield, there is no need to have swimming artillery.
I wonder what exactly you mean by "need" in this context. In some respects, capital ships are similar to artillery, but they are also different in that you cannot reach them with ground units (but can reach them with your own ships and submarines), plus they can only affect a certain part of the map which is close to the coast (and even then, battleship spotted in one place cannot teleport to another quickly, so you can take this into account when planning your actions). So, at the very least, this adds some variety to the game. But there are even more important reasons for the current behavior of capital ships - see below.
Gwaylare wrote: ↑Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:48 pm
May be I am looking to much out of a perspective of a muliplayer gamer. AI is not concentrating fire and exploiting suppression like a human player does, so may be the effect of navy units is not as high in the campaign.
I'll keep this in mind when checking the balance of ships and tanks in the new e-file. But part of the problem might be that Italy scenario in particular was not designed for Multiplayer in the first place.
Gwaylare wrote: ↑Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:48 pm
For all the landing theatres were ships are involved the main part is missing. The attack from a ship mounted ground unit to an adjacent ground field. Even a full suppressed unit will block the way onto the beach. So this is missing interaction here.
This is actually a great observation, and something I've been also thinking about recently (in connection to Archipelago map). Did you encounter this problem in your practical play? I mean, did your opponents try to prevent your landings by placing a unit in every single coast hex?
I think, this problem could actually be solved quite easily. In addition to "disembark" on a free hex, we could add "attack and disembark" action which would happen on a coast hex taken by the enemy. When you do this, a normal attack happens but with a significant disadvantage to the attacker (similar to river effects, but maybe even more severe, and maybe more specialized by unit type, like infantry getting less penalties than the rest). If after combat target hex was vacated (because the enemy was destroyed, retreated or surrendered), the attacker disembarks. But in this scenario, the role of capital ships becomes critical. They really do need the firepower to affect ground units positioned on the coast, even if that's mostly suppression. Then, this scenario of "attack and disembark" becomes feasible. That's why I think that the current implementation of capital ships is not necessarily bad. Note that with the addition of shallow sea, big ships will not be able to approach the coast like they do in Panzer Corps, so they will not reach so far inland with their attacks.
Gwaylare wrote: ↑Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:48 pm
So I am curious to see your naval implementation in Panzer Corps II. Even if I am not very optimistic with it there is a great potential of improving things Panzer Corps was struggling with. For me it seems that a good naval combat just might be a bridge too far for Panzer Corps II.
I understand where your pessimism is coming from: naval war IS difficult to implement in a hex-based TBS.
However, if it's possible at all, Panzer Corps has no less chance than any other game. In some sense, it has an advantage, because it already has a good and time proven ground component, so we have a basis to connect naval stuff to.
Gwaylare wrote: ↑Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:48 pm
But just the point that the old Panzer General already used ships within scenarios should not be an argument at all.
This was not my argument though. I said that those scenarios were
some of the most memorable. It's easy to see why. They added a much welcome variety to the campaign, and required the player to think how to play best in a new and unfamiliar gameplay situation. I would argue that even with the current simplistic rules, removing the ships from the game would gain nothing and only make the game less interesting and varied overall than it is now.