Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #4

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ErissN6
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #4

Post by ErissN6 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:11 pm

jeffoot77 wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:23 am
a strategy i could never have done in PC1 : some paratroopers far behind enemy lines to take an airfield: it takes so many turns to make them travel, land, and make them their way until the airfield that the countdown is already finished...
It sure can be a strategy against a lower tech opponent, but was this a good strategy in WW2??

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #4

Post by ptje63 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:51 pm

No turn limit should have consequences for follow up scenarios - the longer it takes in theory other scenarios can end up being postponed. I would opt for less prestige awarded if one choses to continue to play beyond a certain pre-chosen amount of turns.

proline
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #4

Post by proline » Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:49 pm

ErissN6 wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:11 pm
jeffoot77 wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:23 am
a strategy i could never have done in PC1 : some paratroopers far behind enemy lines to take an airfield: it takes so many turns to make them travel, land, and make them their way until the airfield that the countdown is already finished...
It sure can be a strategy against a lower tech opponent, but was this a good strategy in WW2??
Rarely. In WW2 paratroopers were only effective in a handful of operations. The Germans produced very few heavy tanks and heavy AT. Most of the deaths were due to artillery, starvation, and disease. Success was mostly about the intelligence and logistics of getting a functional army to the right place at the right time. The "must be as historical as possible" crowd are always running up against the reality that a lot of WW2 doesn't actually make for a fun game.

For me, I say that if a unit is purchaseable in the game it should be viable. That goes for jumpers, bridgers, heavy tanks, tac air, etc.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #4

Post by goose_2 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:20 pm

AlbertoC wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:37 am



Support fire

Support fire is another signature mechanic from Panzer Corps. It is a prime example of interaction between units, and it allowed the defender to create “clusters of defence”, which were not so easy to “crack” by the attacker. All this remains true in Panzer Corps 2 too. However, we felt that in the prequel artillery was not very useful in support fire role against tanks, while the class of AT guns was underused. So, in the sequel artillery will provide support fire against soft targets, while AT units will provide support fire against hard targets.

This is it for today. Thanks for reading, and if you have any questions about how core game mechanics will work in Panzer Corps 2, post them in the comments. See you in the next dev diary!
This is huge. I like it a lot and will increase the use and effectiveness of AT's, I am hoping there is some advantage with using those towed AT's as they were very difficult to use in Panzer Corps, but this will increase their effectiveness a ton.

I am looking forward to possibly playtesting these new features and making usre they do not break the balance of the game.

Keep working no rush on this as we want something great not just good or God forbid ok, or even perish the thought Bad :evil:
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proline
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #4

Post by proline » Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:34 pm

goose_2 wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:20 pm
AlbertoC wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:37 am



Support fire

Support fire is another signature mechanic from Panzer Corps. It is a prime example of interaction between units, and it allowed the defender to create “clusters of defence”, which were not so easy to “crack” by the attacker. All this remains true in Panzer Corps 2 too. However, we felt that in the prequel artillery was not very useful in support fire role against tanks, while the class of AT guns was underused. So, in the sequel artillery will provide support fire against soft targets, while AT units will provide support fire against hard targets.

This is it for today. Thanks for reading, and if you have any questions about how core game mechanics will work in Panzer Corps 2, post them in the comments. See you in the next dev diary!
This is huge. I like it a lot and will increase the use and effectiveness of AT's, I am hoping there is some advantage with using those towed AT's as they were very difficult to use in Panzer Corps, but this will increase their effectiveness a ton.

I am looking forward to possibly playtesting these new features and making usre they do not break the balance of the game.

Keep working no rush on this as we want something great not just good or God forbid ok, or even perish the thought Bad :evil:
The proposed change won't make towed AT viable for you to use, it will make it viable against you. The AI tanks will never attack you if you have AT around. They already only really attack on leap days. They're chicken the rest of the time and they certainly don't attack AT of any kind very often. So if the AI won't attack, you're left with the usual problem of going around hunting them down which is something towed AT sucks at. Maybe they will be good on defensive scenarios, but it is usually the AI who is on defense. Hence why I say this mechanic will mostly be used against you.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #4

Post by Kerensky » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:11 pm

proline wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:34 pm
The proposed change won't make towed AT viable for you to use, it will make it viable against you. The AI tanks will never attack you if you have AT around. They already only really attack on leap days. They're chicken the rest of the time and they certainly don't attack AT of any kind very often. So if the AI won't attack, you're left with the usual problem of going around hunting them down which is something towed AT sucks at. Maybe they will be good on defensive scenarios, but it is usually the AI who is on defense. Hence why I say this mechanic will mostly be used against you.
Yea that's why I don't like the design behind ATG weapons. They are simply too powerful, and the AI is too smart to dive head first into them and commit seppuku. That's quite a heady statement, but it rings true. A towed ATG has fantastic init, with an init bonus when being attacked, no hard type vulnerability, and can carry some of the high AT attack values in the game. It's limited by it's mobility, which is the worst of any unit by far, and it's inability to act aggressively. On the other hand, you have an AI smart enough not to impale its Shermans on your 88mm roadblock, but it's also not smart enough to know what to do about it. This often ends up in a weird stalemate where a well positioned ATG unit is face to face with one or more powerful tanks, but no one is shooting at each other they just sit and stare.

This is why making ATG just more powerful with more bonuses just exacerbates the problem, because units are further disinclined from ever actually engaging the unit with their attack action. I think it would be nice if ATG had more of an Overwatch ability. If it's set up and deployed in position, which takes a lot of effort for towed ATG to accomplish, it should be in a position to fire as soon as something gets near it, regardless if the attacked unit wanted to get engaged or not. Tanks that drive too close to ATG get ambushed, and then maybe better scouting behavior will result so your expensive armor stop getting surprised by sneaky hidden ATGs.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #4

Post by ErissN6 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:33 am

Kerensky wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:11 pm
better scouting behavior will result so your expensive armor stop getting surprised by sneaky hidden ATGs.
Scouting was maybe not enough usefull in PCorps (who want a feeble unit in a scenarized game? just relaunch the scenario), but it should be solved in PC2 using the new slots.
I hope too the scenarios in PC2 will be randomized: enemy can be placed at different areas, so we have to actually scout the map.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #4

Post by naturesheva » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:19 pm

ErissN6 wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:33 am
Kerensky wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:11 pm
better scouting behavior will result so your expensive armor stop getting surprised by sneaky hidden ATGs.
Scouting was maybe not enough usefull in PCorps (who want a feeble unit in a scenarized game? just relaunch the scenario), but it should be solved in PC2 using the new slots.
I hope too the scenarios in PC2 will be randomized: enemy can be placed at different areas, so we have to actually scout the map.
My suggestion is, only recon units can discover enemy units' exact stats in some terrains, for example city, forest, mountain. Normal units can only spot unit class, not equipments.

proline
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #4

Post by proline » Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:24 pm

naturesheva wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:19 pm
ErissN6 wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:33 am
Kerensky wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:11 pm
better scouting behavior will result so your expensive armor stop getting surprised by sneaky hidden ATGs.
Scouting was maybe not enough usefull in PCorps (who want a feeble unit in a scenarized game? just relaunch the scenario), but it should be solved in PC2 using the new slots.
I hope too the scenarios in PC2 will be randomized: enemy can be placed at different areas, so we have to actually scout the map.
My suggestion is, only recon units can discover enemy units' exact stats in some terrains, for example city, forest, mountain. Normal units can only spot unit class, not equipments.
The game won't work with complicated scouting rules that are above the AI's understanding. It will just make the AI dumber. Think of how easy it is to ambush the AI now and then double that.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #4

Post by anchopal » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:15 am

@Support fire / "in the sequel artillery will provice support fire against soft targets, while AT units will provide support against hard targets". Introducing support fire of ATs to adjacend units (especially infantry) sounds good. However, I think AT support fire against hard targets shouldn' be substituting artillery support fire. Artillery barrage was historically often in use to stop tank attacks. Therefore, I prefer introducing AT support fire against hard targets in addition to artillery (and air defence) support against all units.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #4

Post by egrofik » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:33 am

In my opinion PC2 goes in the wrong direction .
I don't like the option to play with no turn limit. It's a historical game with real battles from WWII with a certain timeline, how you want to manage this?
And for me it works brilliant in PC, so why change this?
Also I don't like is the slot discussion, I don't want a second OOB.
Maybe have a look to PG2 (PGIIID), with some improvment this could be a way for PC2. You have only limited access to the best units and have the choice which hero unit gets an upgrade or not.
And btw you solve the problem with to many TigerII in the end game (hopefully also for AI with the IS2 ...).

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #4

Post by 13obo » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:34 am

Again, people seem to be missing the point that this will be an OPTION. I don't get the complaints about something that can be turned on or off at whim. It's same thing with any other difficulty option like prestige slider for AI or player, random/chess dice rolls, etc, etc.

You can either play with it or not. There's no need to enforce your playstyle upon others and some people already expressed enthusiasm for the option in posts above.

proline
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #4

Post by proline » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:43 pm

13obo wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:34 am
Again, people seem to be missing the point that this will be an OPTION. I don't get the complaints about something that can be turned on or off at whim.
If you go back and read the Dev Diary, you will see that the onus is on scenario designers to design their scenarios around this option. That means effort will be taken away from putting in cool things towards testing it on "no limit" mode. Designers only have so much time in their day. That means a compromise on quality even if you never turn the OPTION on. So it affects everyone.

Similarly, fragmenting the relatively small community into people who are playing essentially two different games is kind of sad. There's a difference between talking with people playing the same game at an easier mode (e.g. colonel mode vs. general) or playing a totally different game (e.g. chess vs. PzC).

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #4

Post by 13obo » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:49 pm

You seem to be a proponent of removing the chess mode too, so no, I don't agree with you that game should be reduced to the 5 difficulties, because that's too simplistic and limits people's choices.

Also, designers can simply state the game is balanced around using the turn limit option on, same way they currently state a scenario is balanced around colonel difficulty, for example. Voila, the only extra work is writing that one sentence.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #4

Post by goose_2 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:16 pm

One of my favorite items in Panzer Corps is all the ways to tweak the game to set it to standards that you want to fight it. So people like me have a level that they feel comfortable playing it Blind...Field Marshall for me, but once you feel comfortable fighting it at whatever level...you can than tweak it to any difficulty level you please...right now Double Field Marshall, Double Rommel, Increasing Manstein has been an extremely challenging enjoyable fun...
But that is just it, they have created enough ways to tweak it to give me freedom to create something I want to play, and now they are stating that this will be expanded in the next outing which makes me even happier, not sure why we would want to limit the number of settings that they want to create
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #4

Post by Rifraff » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:20 pm

Not too sure about the AT changes. A lot would depend on the AI, but I can see myself having a front line of Stugs or partisans backed by an AT and so just baiting the AI.

Just worried that tanks might lose effectiveness. Why have a tank in the front lines when you can have a throw away unit worth next to no prestige that can be super unit because it is backed by a AT.

I can see my attack force of a two tanks up front supported by an assault gun being replaced by a assault gun and a volkssturm up front supported by an AT..

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #4

Post by klimbo12 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:53 pm

What you describe is what is great on paper and with perfect positioning and time for that, but what ends up happening is that terrain type, multiple units from different directions ?




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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #4

Post by wargovichr » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:49 pm

Nice changes, but all details and tactical embellishments.
The Germans were great tacticians but lousy strategists.
What new optional -- "what if" elements, such as improved logistics, greater mechanization, earlier jump off, industrial mobilization, long range bombers, better weapon (production) development(ME-262 fighter only), 1942 start in East and Caucusus after fall of Britain, etc., will be available in PC2??
The Germans/Axis lost WWII because of strategy.
So, is this just another iteration of historical events? I have history books.

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