Gempei Kassen, a new DLC for Sengoku Jidai!

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AlbertoC
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Gempei Kassen, a new DLC for Sengoku Jidai!

Post by AlbertoC » Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:39 pm

1180 AD, Japan. Two warrior clans have quarrelled for decades over dominance of the Imperial Court: the Taira and the Minamoto. Following the abdication of Emperor Takakura, the Taira have seized power, but the Minamoto aren’t willing to accept the new situation…

Gempei Kassen is a DLC for Sengoku Jidai: Shadow of the Shogun and it brings you to an era 300 years before the Sengoku Jidai period, covering one of the biggest conflicts in medieval Japan which ended with the Shoguns in power.

It features a brand new dynamic campaign representing the brutal struggle between the Taira and Minamoto clans, set in an entirely different era!

The expansion to Sengoku Jidai also comes with six factions that are playable in skirmish mode and several improvements, such as a new model for the Raw Naginata unit, a brand new Ashigaru texture, and new army lists!

Gempei Kassen is coming soon on PC!
Stay tuned for further news!

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Re: Gempei Kassen, a new DLC for Sengoku Jidai!

Post by GShock112 » Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:47 pm

I knew it. :)

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Re: Gempei Kassen, a new DLC for Sengoku Jidai!

Post by Huskie » Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:10 am

Exciting ! An even earlier date into medieval Japan, something that is rarely covered in any PC game. Can't wait until it is released.
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Re: Gempei Kassen, a new DLC for Sengoku Jidai!

Post by Towerbooks3192 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:09 pm

Sengoku Jidai: Rise of the Samurai XD

I love Sengoku Jidai so much.

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Re: Gempei Kassen, a new DLC for Sengoku Jidai!

Post by GorgoPrimus » Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:52 pm

I'd much rather more stuff from the Renaissance and early modern Asia, but more stuff is better than the alternative. Keep up the support! :)

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Re: Gempei Kassen, a new DLC for Sengoku Jidai!

Post by Turtler » Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:37 am

Well, the period is a welcome bit of flavor and I look forward to it.

HOWEVER: I noticed two things. One which is minor, one of which is definitely not.

First: That Bloody Map Again. If we're going to have the vast majority of stuff regarding the campaigns take place in Central Japan, is it too much to ask that there is at least some variation and color to it?

It's just one of my hearty pet peeves.

But it's not the bigger one. Oh No. That comes from the history nerding. And I quote:
Join the pro-imperial forces that aim to preserve the ancient imperial system which, in turn, can be manipulated for their own benefit. Or join the anti-imperial revolution to replace the corrupted imperial system with strict military rule. The fate of this war will shape the future of the land of the Rising Sun.
*Turtler Facedesks.*

I am sorry, but.... No. Just NO.

Let's talk about the pure game function: Would Yoshinaka's faction count as "Pro-Imperial" in this logic or "Anti-Imperial"?

And why?

And beyond that, take a look at the way it jams up the interface in that. Having "Taira (Pro-Imp)" spelled out in the campaign map just makes it crammed. I can only imagine what it must look like with the Minamoto (or rather "Minamoto (Anti-Imp)".

But now let's talk about the actual history.

This isn't the Wars of the Renaissance (where the Habsburg Imperium(s) was one of the primary sides), the Nanboku-Chou (which did happen in this general time and tech period and setting), or the Boshin War where this designation would make actual Sense. The Taira were not "Pro-Imperial" in any meaningful sense beyond the fact that they had control of the imperial capitol at the time and had managed to put a puppet emperor with their bloodline on the throne, in a move that actually ALIENATED most people who could be called "Pro-Imperial." Hence why the Minamoto Rising was triggered by the actual heir apparent to the throne, and why Cloistered Emperor Go-Shirakawa spent more time with the Minamoto than he did with the Taira.

The Taira were not "Pro-Imperial" so much as they were "Pro-Emperor (sitting onthe throne at the time, because of Taira court maneuvers)". Which considering he was their heir apparent meant the Taira were basically (and unsurprisingly) Pro-Themselves. Likewise with the Minamoto. So in short, it involves more clutter on the screen and more effort typing it out *in exchange for being less accurate.* This is a Bad Situation.

Now, if this DLC also included-say- the Late Kamakura conflicts such as the Genko war between the Emperor and the Shogunate, or the Nanboku-Chou where the South Court fought the Ashikaga Shogunate. THERE the descriptions of factions as Pro or Anti Imperial would be decent-ish reflections of reality, and the latter in particular strike me as a promising material for a SJ:SotS campaign. But to have the Gempei described as this is just...bizarre to me.

So my two cents.

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Re: Gempei Kassen, a new DLC for Sengoku Jidai!

Post by jomni » Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:55 am

Taira is Pro-imperial here because Taira no Kiyomori made his grandson the Emperor. Though other may claim that they are the anti-imperial because of their scheming.

Though Manamoto's backers would be the retired emperor Go-Shirakawa.
So are they pro imperial?

Here is our reasoning for Pro and Anti. It is in the interest of Taira to actually uphold the corrupted imperial system (status quo) that they exploit to their advantage, so they are sort of pro-imperial. And the Minamoto, winning the war, ended up fully marginalising the Emperor and set up the Bakufu system ruled by the Shoguns to prevent the exploitative schemes of the Taira. So they are pretty much anti-imperial. If the Taira were to win it would probably be a continuation of making their kin the emperors than going by a similar shogunate system.

The game actually has pro- and anti- sides for Minamoto, Taira, Fujiwara (for skirmish but not in campaign to keep it simple). That's why the factions used in the campaign has those prefixes.

We are working on other maps. But no announcement yet.

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Re: Gempei Kassen, a new DLC for Sengoku Jidai!

Post by GShock112 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:56 am

It's a gold mine... it's a gold mine.

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Re: Gempei Kassen, a new DLC for Sengoku Jidai!

Post by Turtler » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:30 am

jomni wrote:Taira is Pro-imperial here because Taira no Kiyomori made his grandson the Emperor. Though other may claim that they are the anti-imperial because of their scheming.
Exactly. Which is why I mentioned it:

The Taira under Kiyomori and his allies were not fighting out of some great loyalty to the Imperial system or the dynasty. They were fighting- like they had in the earlier "incidents"- for their Dynastic power. The fact that by this venture they had managed to basically hijack official imperial succession and were defacto in control of the capitol gave them most of the resources of the Japanese state doesn't change that fundamental fact, and that certainly wouldn't be the case if this DLC included the big cross-clan melees that ravaged Kyoto in the years before it.

Likewise, the Minamoto fought the Taira-dominated Imperial government not out of some kind of antipathy to the Imperial line or government (as I mentioned before, they tried to position themselves as the rightful protectors of it) but because the Taira were the Taira, and Kiyomori in particular had been the bane of their existence. So they were looking to even the odds and Mochihito's ambitions coincided with theirs.
jomni wrote:Though Manamoto's backers would be the retired emperor Go-Shirakawa.
So are they pro imperial?
I am more or less indifferent on this count. Like I mentioned above, the key dividing line was not ideology (whether pro-or-anti-Imperial or Court v. Province) or even Clan (like how the Hogen rebellion saw Minamoto, Fujiwara, and Taira fight alongside each other against relatives of themselves) but dynastic. Even to a higher degree than-say- the North and South Courts period where you do have a decent-ish ability to define sides as "Pro-Imperial" or "Anti-Imperial/Pro-Shogunate."

But if I had a gun to my head and was forced to decide I would say that yes, the Minamoto probably have a slightly better claim to it. Not to say that the Imperial family wasn't above family disputes or getting involved in politics (Go-Shirakawa changed sides ruthlessly after all, including siding with Kiyomori and his allies during the Hogen rebellions when it was convenient). However, two things come to mind.

A: The Insei system- for all the partisanship and yes corruption I mentioned- was sort of a preserve of Imperial autonomy and power in an era where the imperial court was dominated by the various noble dynasties (Fujiwara, Taira, Minamoto, etc. etc. al.). It was an attempt by the dynasty to reassert control and get something closer to an actual imperial government (like this idealized version of the Taika reforms era). The people who held it- whether Go-Shirakawa or Go-Toba- were behind the big attempts by the Imperial house to break the authority of the nobles as a whole, and particularly the military governments of Kiyomori and the Early Hojo.

And both Go-Shirakawa and his favored heir came out *heavily* in favor of the Minamoto during this war, because they had a shared enemy. In essence these people believed that the best way to get an Imperial government going was to side with the anti-Taira rebels and use them to bring down Kiyomori etc. al. and their control over the court government.

And

B: The succession of Emperor Antoku wasn't just engineered by Kiyomori (this was nothing out of the ordinary for the period), but it stepped on a lot of the rules for imperial succession. And it seems to have done so in a way that was somewhat scandalous even for the period. Which is one reason why the start of the Gempei War was not anything the Minamoto did, but Prince Mochihito raising the banner of revolt for what he claimed was his rightful position.

Now it's somewhat hard to say how far this really went (given how arcane imperial succession rules were and how most of what we know is secondhand and anti-Kiyomori), and it certainly wasn't like imperial succession rules were holy and untouched. They weren't, and the Fujiwara had made swiss cheese out of them before (particularly Michinaga). But it certainly triggered a lot of resistance and saw large scale defections by most of the imperial household that weren't directly in favor of the Taira (or like Antoku Taira/part Taira themselves).

I don't mean to vilify Kiyomori or the Taira or paint the Insei Emperors or the Minamoto as shining, legitimate heroes. There was plenty of ambition and corruption on all sides. The issue I have is with the characterization of the former as seeking to preserve the ancient Imperial system. They weren't, and that's shown by how the first thing Kiyomori did after crushing the first salvo of Minamoto resistance during the Heiji Disturbance was... well, to behead people. But the second thing he did was to bring in a lot of his military loyalists from the provinces and pretty much upturn traditional court governance by appointing them.

All three sides- Minamoto, Tiara, and Insei- were basically seeking to change the current system to benefit themselves. The fighting was largely over who would get the honors.

And why I generally would probably side-step the issue altogether by keeping them listed as Taira and Minamoto.
jomni wrote:Here is our reasoning for Pro and Anti. Since the Taira has a tendency to actually uphold the corrupted imperial system that they exploit to their advantage, they are sort of pro-imperial. And the Minamoto winning the war ended up fully marginalising the Emperor and set up the Bakufu system ruled by the Shoguns
to prevent the exploitative schemes of the Taira. So they are pretty much anti-imperial.
Fair enough, and in terms of labeling the sides of the Gempei War as either pro or anti-Imperial, you could make the argument for either side and decide for yourself.

But on that note: as for upholding and exploiting the imperial government... basically everybody did that (or tried to). The only reason the Minamoto really stopped is because the Taira shut them out, killed off as many as he could justify, and exiled the rest to the provinces meaning that in any future confrontation they had to come in from the outside.

It was not only common, but practically traditional for the Emperor to be marginalized (hence why the Retired Emperorship was set up). The Taira had done it before Kamakura and the Fujiwara had done it before them, and the Emperors knew it all too well. What the Minamoto changed wasn't that so much as it was marginalizing the court government in Kyoto that had both ruled the country and been in the hands of various noble rivals of them (and in doing so they were-ironically- supported at first by the parts of the Imperial family that were not Very close to the Taira).
jomni wrote:The game actually has pro- and anti- sides for Minamoto, Taira, Fujiwara (for skirmish but not in campaign to keep it simple). That's why the factions used in the campaign has those prefixes.
Sorry, maybe I'm derping but I don't understand. How do you mean Pro- or Anti- sides?

And how would that affect the pre-fixes in the campaign?

I get the impression I'm missing something pretty obvious, so apologies for the stupidity.
jomni wrote:We are working on other maps. But no announcement yet.
Glad to hear, and looking forward to it.

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Re: Gempei Kassen, a new DLC for Sengoku Jidai!

Post by jomni » Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:14 am

In skirmish and editor (not campaign) you have pro-imperial and anti-imperial versions of Minamoto and Taira.
So you can have Minamoto vs Minamoto battle for example. Which happened historically.

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Re: Gempei Kassen, a new DLC for Sengoku Jidai!

Post by Turtler » Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:55 pm

jomni wrote:In skirmish and editor (not campaign) you have pro-imperial and anti-imperial versions of Minamoto and Taira.
So you can have Minamoto vs Minamoto battle for example. Which happened historically.
Understandable; that makes sense.

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Re: Gempei Kassen, a new DLC for Sengoku Jidai!

Post by alexwaston » Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:24 am

Well, the period is a welcome bit of flavor and I look forward to it.

HOWEVER: I noticed two things. One which is minor, one of which is definitely not.

First: That Bloody Map Again. If we're going to have the vast majority of stuff regarding the campaigns take place in Central Japan, is it too much to ask that there is at least some variation and color to it?

It's just one of my hearty pet peeves.
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Re: Gempei Kassen, a new DLC for Sengoku Jidai!

Post by GeorgiaGlew » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:39 am

AlbertoC wrote:1180 AD, Japan. Two warrior clans have quarrelled for decades over dominance of the Imperial Court: the Taira and the Minamoto. Following the abdication of Emperor Takakura, the Taira have seized power, but the Minamoto aren’t willing to accept the new situation…

Gempei Kassen is a DLC for Sengoku Jidai: Shadow of the Shogun and it brings you to an era 300 years before the Sengoku Jidai period, covering one of the biggest conflicts in medieval Japan which ended with the Shoguns in power.

It features a brand new dynamic campaign representing the brutal struggle between the Taira and Minamoto clans, set in an entirely different era!

The expansion to Sengoku Jidai also comes with six factions that are playable in skirmish mode and several improvements, such as a new model for the Raw Naginata unit, a brand new Ashigaru texture, and new army lists!

Gempei Kassen is coming soon on PC!
Stay tuned for further news!
Thanks for sharing. I think it's great.

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