Cataphracts

A forum for any questions relating to army design, the army companion books and upcoming lists.

Moderators: philqw78, terrys, hammy, Slitherine Core, Field of Glory Design, Field of Glory Moderators

ravenflight
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1966
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:52 am

Cataphracts

Post by ravenflight »

Hi Guys,

What are Cataphracts like in V2?

I'm wondering if the watered down effect of armour may make them unreasonable cost wise.
kevinj
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:21 am
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: Cataphracts

Post by kevinj »

When you look at the change, the only impact is going to be when fighting armoured troops.

In a straight fight against other cavalry, the vast majority of your opponents will also have sword, so you'll retain your + advantage for armour.

Against non-spear foot you'll still be at + against swordsmen for your armour. You'll no longer be at ++ against armoured troops with no melee capability. Basically, armoured archers like Persian Immortals or Kofun Nara.
Against spearmen, you're starting behind anyway so the armour still helps. You're certainly no worse here than you were in V1.

The only place you lose out compared to V1 is going to be against Armoured troops that you're already beating, such as fragmented spearmen or where you are uphill or they are fighting in multiple directions.In these circumstances you'll just be at + rather than ++, but for the majority of cases the change won't affect your armour benefits.

So, Short Answer, I think they're still worthwhile where they were previously.
philqw78
Chief of Staff - Elite Maus
Chief of Staff - Elite Maus
Posts: 8812
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:31 am
Location: Manchester

Re: Cataphracts

Post by philqw78 »

I think not getting a double plus from armour (unless 2 better) is a great move for the game. HA stuff is not as good as it was, but its still good. Gives armies with numbers a chance.
phil
putting the arg into argumentative, except for the lists I check where there is no argument!
Robert241167
Lieutenant Colonel - Elite Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Elite Panther D
Posts: 1368
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:03 pm
Location: Leeds

Re: Cataphracts

Post by Robert241167 »

Don't forget the impact of support shooting no longer being on a - POA.

Rob
kevinj
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:21 am
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: Cataphracts

Post by kevinj »

Don't forget the impact of support shooting no longer being on a - POA
If anything this is probably a positive for cataphracts relative to other troops as some shooters will still be on a - against them.
grahambriggs
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Posts: 3057
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:48 am

Re: Cataphracts

Post by grahambriggs »

They do gain a bit from the changes to impact cohesion tests. Being a bit slow, it's often possible to make sure they only hit you with one base at impact. In v1 that was a sneaky way to ride out the impact as they'll rarely win the impact 2-0. Hence the cohesion test was sometimes only on a minus for losing to lancers. In v2 if the cats win there will certainly be a -2 and maybe a -3.

Also, if they have the joy of hitting a flank, the "-1 for losing impact" will apply far more frequently that the old "losing by 2 or more", so the flank attack is more deadly.

The manouvre changes might make drilled cataphracts a bit of a luxury. Turn 90 or expand and then move 2MU is debilitating. On the other hand, being able to always turn the undrilled with a general might save the odd flank disaster.

So I think like most pricey armoured guys they've go a little worse. Since they and armoured lancers were very good in period though I doubt that they'll be a bad buy.
philqw78
Chief of Staff - Elite Maus
Chief of Staff - Elite Maus
Posts: 8812
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:31 am
Location: Manchester

Re: Cataphracts

Post by philqw78 »

Looking at the R&R for this weekend at Burton there will be a lot of cataphracts. So we will find out soon how good they are.
phil
putting the arg into argumentative, except for the lists I check where there is no argument!
Robert241167
Lieutenant Colonel - Elite Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Elite Panther D
Posts: 1368
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:03 pm
Location: Leeds

Re: Cataphracts

Post by Robert241167 »

I think the hordes of nellies may sort them out. :cry:

Rob
ravenflight
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1966
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:52 am

Re: Cataphracts

Post by ravenflight »

Robert241167 wrote:I think the hordes of nellies may sort them out. :cry:

Rob
I've got an unfounded feeling that the Elephant and foot archer situation is almost proof of the theory of evolution. It's survival of the fittest. For about a year or so people will have way out armies 'taking advantage of the new rules' and then we'll find the new truth will come out.

I think 'hordes of nellies' may be less of an issue in a year's time when people work out how to deal with them.
marty
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Posts: 635
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:26 am
Location: Sydney

Re: Cataphracts

Post by marty »

I always felt cataphracts were always a bad buy in an open format (but OK in period). I suspect this is still the case.

Martin
timmy1
Lieutenant-General - Nashorn
Lieutenant-General - Nashorn
Posts: 3436
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:39 pm
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, England

Re: Cataphracts

Post by timmy1 »

(I think I am reading this right - if not feel free to deride me for it... ) Also the change so foot skilled sword counts against mounted swordsmen will make them weaker in a protracted melee against my Romans...
batesmotel
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:52 pm

Re: Cataphracts

Post by batesmotel »

Mounted swordsmen still count against all but elephants and steady pike/spearmen so it's the same as V1.

Chris
....where life is beautiful all the time
Fluffy
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 251/1
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz  251/1
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:52 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Cataphracts

Post by Fluffy »

Against things that are protected (which we should see more of) cats are better off than amoured cavalry. So win.
KiwiWarlord
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Posts: 1127
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:39 am
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

Re: Cataphracts

Post by KiwiWarlord »

Looking at a 6 Base BG of Dom Rom Cats for a 900pt Rome and her Enemies comp.
Thinking is most folk run around in 4s so 6 should kick butt. :idea:
Anyone tried 6s ?
Thanks
grahambriggs
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Posts: 3057
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:48 am

Re: Cataphracts

Post by grahambriggs »

Warlord wrote:Looking at a 6 Base BG of Dom Rom Cats for a 900pt Rome and her Enemies comp.
Thinking is most folk run around in 4s so 6 should kick butt. :idea:
Anyone tried 6s ?
Thanks
You sometimes see them, for example a Tibetan ally is often a single BG of 6.

If your strategy is a massed cataphract charge, 6s might be better than 4s as you could get 24 bases all fighting with generals. The downside is that, being expensive, they make the army size in BGs a bit smaller. But 900pts dom rom wouldn't have that problem I suspect.
Fluffy
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 251/1
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz  251/1
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:52 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Cataphracts

Post by Fluffy »

4's are more agile, but if you're not drilled/doing more than charging...

That said, if you're superior there is not much more that 6 can do (esp. for 40 points), superior + heavy armour give 4's enough brawn.

If you're average though, you probably need some bulk to make up for it. I never bother with average cats though.
ravenflight
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1966
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:52 am

Re: Cataphracts

Post by ravenflight »

Warlord wrote:Looking at a 6 Base BG of Dom Rom Cats for a 900pt Rome and her Enemies comp.
Thinking is most folk run around in 4s so 6 should kick butt. :idea:
Anyone tried 6s ?
Thanks
In my Palmyran army I've run 1 BG of 6 and 1 BG of 4.

I do this because I can adapt more to situations. An expensive option, but it means that my 10 Cataphracts can go up against a BG of Knights and win (still no guarantee, but you do what you have to do), it allows me to have cats on each flank if I want, and one of those flanks being probably larger in number than my opponents (i.e. most people field 4's - which is what you're saying. They are moderately easy to avoid, but have value in that as well (people get out of their way) so why not give them a go?
KiwiWarlord
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Posts: 1127
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:39 am
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

Re: Cataphracts

Post by KiwiWarlord »

Ravenflight, that name rings a bell from the Renaissance Dinner at Cancon, I was sitting on your left and spilt some dipping sauce early on.. :oops: DBR players can get messy :wink:
I thought you had given up AM and only played R ?
Brian
ravenflight
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1966
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:52 am

Re: Cataphracts

Post by ravenflight »

Warlord wrote:I thought you had given up AM and only played R ?
Well, I haven't played a game of AM since about this time last year. Martin Williams and Paul Rattray run a comp at Blacktown that I played in because... well... mostly because they are my friends, but also to support that club.

I didn't mind AM, but it certainly wasn't the be all and end all.

I used to play AM almost exclusively, but was getting disenchanted by it toward the end of V1's life. I then totally gave up on it when they decided to go 'digital only'. I (in essence) had a dummy spit. Whilst they have picked up the ball (from my perspective) and published, it was enough to kill any enthusiasm.

I keep my finger on the pulse here, and am not opposed to another game, I just haven't had one (but please note that my tone has always been 'past tense') :)
Mazdaran
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:06 pm

Re: Cataphracts

Post by Mazdaran »

I have V1 of the print rules, but I am following this discussion with some interest because cataphracts are the main reason I got this game!
Post Reply

Return to “Army Design”