The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

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Re: Classical Indian: winners post your results here

Post by paulmcneil » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:43 pm

It all comes down to the terrain generally.
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Re: Classical Indian: winners post your results here

Post by FroBodine » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:45 pm

What is the strategy for taking on those all bow armies? They just pick you off as you move closer, then retreat and get another shot or two off before you finally can engage them. By that time your troops are on the verge of disruption from taking so many losses.

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Re: Classical Indian: winners post your results here

Post by NikiforosFokas » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:53 pm

FroBodine wrote:I just want to vent a little. I don't see how the Mountain Indian army can be beaten in these matchups. They are all bowmen and bow skirmishers. All three of majandro's victories were wipeouts. Nobody stood a chance against that army. It just seems very unfair.

I'm not a sore loser, but when the matchups are as unbalanced as this was, it just wasn't fun.
the whole Indian thing it is just so op that I feel bored af to play any more games against Indian -based army-. It reminds me the old good Dailami from Fog1 days. I am sure there is a way to avoid a defeat from them but it does not have to be so hard to win them. Why? Because is highly unrealistic. If it would be so hard to win an Indian army lets wonder why Indians never conquer the world. I know it is just a game... But still can not see how 3 cataphract units cannot reach the Indian line before the would-be annihilate from the naked archers. they are cataphracts...
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Re: Classical Indian: winners post your results here

Post by MikeC_81 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:38 am

FroBodine wrote:What is the strategy for taking on those all bow armies? They just pick you off as you move closer, then retreat and get another shot or two off before you finally can engage them. By that time your troops are on the verge of disruption from taking so many losses.
You can't accept battle on their terms. Never attack into a bow army when they have difficult terrain like hills, rough, or forest that are within a few squares behind their bowline. It is a trap. They will shoot you on approach and simply backpedal into the rough where you cannot pursue and shoot you some more. Force them into the open if they want to a win. Hasty and unorganized approaches into bowlines are also a surefire way to lose the game. Against Indians or other Mass Bowman heavy lineups, take care to deploy farther back than usual so you have time to see their disposition and can form up your line of battle exactly the way you want it. Always take the time to count out the 4 square shooting range. Never voluntarily cross that threshold or allow the bow player to move past that threshold until you are 100% ready to push when that red line is crossed. When you are ready to push, push with your entire army all at once simultaneously.

If the Bow player wants to shoot, make it so that he has to move into the 4 square range on his turn. He can then either shoot at a long range + move penalty or hold fire and to avoid wasting a volley. At this point your entire line can advance into charge range. He can backpedal but each bow unit now must pass a CT to do so. Its about 1 in 4 to fail and get disrupted. If he leaves any units in melee range, get into melee as soon as possible to prevent additional incoming shots. Do not stutter step. Push continuously until contact is made.

If he chooses to wait it out but does not have trap terrain behind him as a fallback, form up on the 5 square line (just out of bow range). When you are ready, pass any and all skirmishers you have in front of your army (they have a 3 square move) to screen your best units (usually troops that can withstand elephants) and move your main line so you have 2 squares in between you and the bows (3 squares if you have a skirmisher screen; your main line will be staggered if so). He can either backpedal and shoot (forcing once again the double negative modifier to shooting) or stand and shoot (suffering only the long range penalty). Follow up by marching directly in front or with 1 square between if you have the skirmisher screen. At this point, it is likely several units will be disrupted and the bow player will have passed some melee troops up to the front. Use your healthy units to engage their melee and move everyone else up on your next turn either into contact or right in front of the bows if he chose to backpedal. If he chose to backpedal en masse, there will be several bow units now disrupted and will have limited firepower.

Once you engage in hand to hand combat, it is a matter of dice rolling that will be in your favour. Expect most matches to end with the 60% loss threshold from either side as these games will be fairly bloody. If you do not have a lot of units that are decent against elephants be prepared to move aside and simply let the elephants break one unit and pursue into your rear. Ignore them and push the infantry. There is a good chance the game will be decided before they have time to call the elephants back to cause more damage. Often though, given their limited close combat troops you can find flanks on elephants and break them. Take every opportunity to do so. They are essentially morale bombs that can blow up the bow line for you. But you have to commit to the choice. If you do half measures, the Elephant will simply break a unit and find another unit to charge and you now have lost 2 units. Better that you just gave him a clear pursuit path and minimize your losses.

If you do your job properly its about 50/50 to win. It comes down to whether the Indians pass enough of their CT tests from various sources. If they are stubborn, you lose. If they crack you can win with chain panic bombs. The more access to skirmishers you have, the higher the chance of success since you can sacrifice cheap skirmishers to absorb missile fire.

In summary, prepare thoroughly before moving into bow range. Ensure every element in your army is where you want it and understand ahead of time which units will be assigned to take on the relatively few Indian melee capable units and *move as one*. I cannot emphasis this enough. You goal is to hit your 60% threshold by wiping out the bowman as they the softest part of the army. If there aren't enough bowman to make up 60%, then the army isn't that bow heavy to begin with. Once you choose to commit with your main line units, you must follow through 100%. There can be no stumbling in front of the bowline through indecision. Do not be disheartened if you suffer severe losses before you hit the bowline. I have turned around games where I was down almost 20% before I hit the bowline and come back to win 55-61.

NikiforosFokas wrote:
FroBodine wrote:I just want to vent a little. I don't see how the Mountain Indian army can be beaten in these matchups. They are all bowmen and bow skirmishers. All three of majandro's victories were wipeouts. Nobody stood a chance against that army. It just seems very unfair.

I'm not a sore loser, but when the matchups are as unbalanced as this was, it just wasn't fun.
the whole Indian thing it is just so op that I feel bored af to play any more games against Indian -based army-. It reminds me the old good Dailami from Fog1 days. I am sure there is a way to avoid a defeat from them but it does not have to be so hard to win them. Why? Because is highly unrealistic. If it would be so hard to win an Indian army lets wonder why Indians never conquer the world. I know it is just a game... But still can not see how 3 cataphract units cannot reach the Indian line before the would-be annihilate from the naked archers. they are cataphracts...
The approach and setup is difficult to play. Any mistakes are punished harshly. Also there are very few armies with the right combination of units that can actually accomplish this task. So yes it can be an unfun matchup. But against most Tier A armies that are not horse archers, the Indians have at most a 60-40 edge. Possibly less.
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Re: Classical Indian: winners post your results here

Post by Cunningcairn » Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:39 am

FroBodine wrote:What is the strategy for taking on those all bow armies? They just pick you off as you move closer, then retreat and get another shot or two off before you finally can engage them. By that time your troops are on the verge of disruption from taking so many losses.
You need skirmishers to protect your advancing line. Advance with mounted and infantry together which allows you to charge bowman from a greater distance reducing the mass fire potential. Use skirmishers in conjunction with mounted so the cavalry cannot withdraw from combat. Then close with infantry. Keep frontage narrow and attack only one part of the Indian line.

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Re: The Rally Point

Post by FroBodine » Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:22 pm

Thank you very much, MikeC and Cunningcairn. Very helpful.

One last question (for now) - I have read a few times about folks talking about freezing units with ZOC. What does this mean, please? I know what ZOC is, but how does freezing units work in practice in this game, and how does one do this effectively?

Thank you very much!

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Re: The Rally Point

Post by stockwellpete » Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:28 pm

I cannot say too much as I have signed a non-disclosure agreement (NDA) with regards to the next beta for FOG2, but I can say the issue of "massed archer" armies is being looked at again. I have fed in some statistics from this season of the FOG2DL to help with the consideration of this subject. :wink:

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Re: The Rally Point

Post by NikiforosFokas » Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:03 pm

stockwellpete wrote:I cannot say too much as I have signed a non-disclosure agreement (NDA) with regards to the next beta for FOG2, but I can say the issue of "massed archer" armies is being looked at again. I have fed in some statistics from this season of the FOG2DL to help with the consideration of this subject. :wink:
good news :D can I ask an auto evasion setting now or i am just greedy?
Last edited by NikiforosFokas on Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Rally Point

Post by bbogensc » Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:06 pm

FroBodine - ZOC makes FOGII better than tabletop ancient gaming in my view because you have the computer calculating ZOC thereby simplifying gameplay. The possible ways to use ZOC in combat are probably endless, but imagine you have 1 Legion, 1 Aux side-by-side and your opponent has 1 Phalanx, with the 3 units facing each other. You may want to move the Aux to the flank. As you approach, you move the Legion to point directly at the Phalanx. Even if the Phalanx is within charge range of the Aux, the ZOC causes the Phalanx to need to charge the Legion only. However, nce those units go into combat, the ZOC of the Phalanx disappears and the Aux can then move around to the flank.

Another way to use ZOC is with cavalry. The non-lance cavalry will often retreat when charged by Heavy Infantry. So, if you move a Cavalry to point directly at an infantry that will "pin" it so that the unit is forced to charge the cavalry rather than some other unit.

The most creative way I have seen ZOC used is with archers, however. If you have a long line of archers and each turns to shoot sideways, then the ZOC of each archer covers the space in front of the next archer in line. This prevents infantry from charging the archer line as they must move into the ZOC, then turn and charge the archer unit facing diagonally, which takes 2 turns. That makes the archer line very effective and is key to playing with an Indian army.

Note, that ZOC only works heavy to heavy or light, or light to light. Also, you do not ZOC into a forest (a lesson I learned the hard way in a tournament match).

I hope that is helpful.

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Re: The Rally Point

Post by bbogensc » Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:20 pm

I play Indian in Classical Antiquity and can tell you the Indian archer armies can be easily defeated on an open map by mixing the unit types in deployment.

In the line you put some cavalry one space behind heavy infantry or skirmishers and move them forward under archer fire together. The lead heavy infantry should be high quality and general-led to reduce the chances of it disrupting from archer fire. All of the army must approach the Indian force at the same time, preferably with some skirmishers to soak up 1 round of archer fire, although this is not absolutely necessary.

Note, the presence of the cavalry causes the Archers to take a CT check upon withdrawal 4 spaces away, not 2 spaces away. This is key to keep the archers in place so you can charge them effectively.

Furthermore, the cavalry prevents the archers from turning their back on an approaching force and just moving away. As the Indian player, I love to do this if my opponent has no cavalry around at all.

If the Indian archers deploy on a hill, then it gets more difficult however as there will be ranks of archer fire. In that case, move to the flank as you can expect the archers will deploy on the hill.

I was able to win against a good player in the Alexander Tourney 42-2 against Indian with this approach. In league play, note that if the Indian player maneuvers on the flank with many archer units, then its game over.

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Re: The Rally Point

Post by nyczar » Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:25 pm

this is a good video on ZOC from another place in the forum

For more information on Zones of Control, watch this: https://youtu.be/TEK7W1AfdzE

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Re: Themed Event: winners post your results here

Post by mhladnik » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:45 am

stockwellpete wrote:Semi-final Pool A first result

stockwellpete (Romans) beat Snugglebunnies (Etruscans) 11-2, the Etruscans surrendered.
How do tiebreakers work on surrender?

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Re: Themed Event: winners post your results here

Post by stockwellpete » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:57 am

mhladnik wrote:
stockwellpete wrote:Semi-final Pool A first result

stockwellpete (Romans) beat Snugglebunnies (Etruscans) 11-2, the Etruscans surrendered.
How do tiebreakers work on surrender?
A very good question. There is a gap in the rules that will need to be dealt with in time for Season 2. I have referred this situation to the other two adjudicators (hidde and ianiow) and Snugglebunnies is involved in the discussion too. I am ahead 6-2 in the other match at the moment and I do have the option of just surrendering it so that I would go through on the tiebreaker 17-4. I hope to have more information later on today. :wink:

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Re: Themed Event: winners post your results here

Post by mhladnik » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:13 am

A similar issue arises when bonus point rules are in effect.

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Re: Themed Event: winners post your results here

Post by stockwellpete » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:23 am

mhladnik wrote:A similar issue arises when bonus point rules are in effect.
How do you mean?

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Re: The Rally Point

Post by mhladnik » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:33 am

Well, not with calculating tiebreakers, of course, as they are obviously none - but the difference at the end determines the bonus points. With no provisions in place, giving up early in a match you know you're going to lose guarantees you a losing bonus point; giving up before the opponent passes the 30 point difference threshold denies him the winning bonus point.

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Re: The Rally Point

Post by stockwellpete » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:38 am

mhladnik wrote:Well, not with calculating tiebreakers, of course, as they are obviously none - but the difference at the end determines the bonus points. With no provisions in place, giving up early in a match you know you're going to lose guarantees you a losing bonus point; giving up before the opponent passes the 30 point difference threshold denies him the winning bonus point.
No. If you surrender early in Classical Indian then the winner automatically gets the winning bonus point. It has happened a few times already. If we decide to keep bonus points in Season 2 then the rules will be updated then. At the moment we are just at the trial stage.

Re: Classical Indian: winners post your results here

Postby schmolywar » 01 Mar 2018 22:10

Division A

Schmolywar (Mountain Indians) vs rexhurley (Graeco-Bactrians) - rexhurley surrendered WINNING BONUS POINT!

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Re: The Rally Point

Post by mhladnik » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:44 am

Ah, I see. I assumed that's the solution, but I only looked at the general rules. Never mind me, carry on :)

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Re: Themed Event: winners post your results here

Post by stockwellpete » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:22 pm

stockwellpete wrote:
mhladnik wrote:
stockwellpete wrote:Semi-final Pool A first result

stockwellpete (Romans) beat Snugglebunnies (Etruscans) 11-2, the Etruscans surrendered.
How do tiebreakers work on surrender?
A very good question. There is a gap in the rules that will need to be dealt with in time for Season 2. I have referred this situation to the other two adjudicators (hidde and ianiow) and Snugglebunnies is involved in the discussion too. I am ahead 6-2 in the other match at the moment and I do have the option of just surrendering it so that I would go through on the tiebreaker 17-4. I hope to have more information later on today. :wink:
A draw was agreed in the second match between myself and Snugglebunnies so the situation has resolved itself. In Season 2 and beyond, players who surrender in a paired game in the KO stage of the Themed Event will automatically forfeit the match.

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From Cyrus to Tigranes discussion

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:46 am

The interesting thing is that if you look at the From Cyrus to Tigranes section as a whole then there is only one player who will definitely finish with more than 6 wins in the season and that is ZygfrydDeLowe in Division C (simpleninja could still finish with 7 wins). In Division B, Cunningcairn is currently top with 6 wins, but he can be pipped at the post if batesmotel wins against majandro in the last match. So From Cyrus to Tigranes is definitely the most closely fought section overall in the tournament in this first season. I think that must have something to do with the format where players have to deal with 9 different match-ups during the course of the season. Not all the match-ups are equal and one or two have proved to be very unequal (e.g. Pontic v Bosporans) and will be replaced in Season 2. Hopefully players did not feel that they had been allocated an unfair number of weaker armies as I did try to balance things out as fairly as I could.

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