The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

[devoncop]

I would re-iterate what Pete says above. Not having entered the FOG1L or indeed played FOG1 at all I read the rules and importantly they describe the obligations upon players who choose to enter. There are potentially many MP games to play (great!) so players do need to be prepared to see the League through if everyone is to enjoy the experience to the maximum.
In the relatively short Slitherine tournaments drop outs and time outs we're still relatively high (particularly in tournament 1) so please make sure you understand the commitment before joining.
Having said all that it should be a blast and the promotion/relegation dynamic is brilliant.

Now back to deciding on my three army choices and the order of preference......

[76mm]

...you won't know which one of the three armies you have been given until shortly before the competition starts (we normally allow a week or so for players to have a friendly match or two with their army). So you will have to factor this uncertainty into your choices.

Just so that we understand, how does the selection from our three nominated armies work? In order of some kind of priority 1-2-3, randomly, depending on what others choose, etc.? When you're assigning armies is there any weight given to assigning a player an army that no one else has chosen?

[stockwellpete]

Just so that we understand, how does the selection from our three nominated armies work? In order of some kind of priority 1-2-3, randomly, depending on what others choose, etc.? When you're assigning armies is there any weight given to assigning a player an army that no one else has chosen?

You can put your armies in order of preference if you want to or you can just name three armies. The first thing I do is put players into divisions without any regard to the armies they have chosen. For this first season I will have no FOG2DL ratings to help me, nor will I have the previous seasons final tables either. So I will look at what has happened in the automated tournaments and I will supplement that with what I know about individual players. I may have played them in a friendly match or they may have entered the FOG1DL in the past.

Then, once I have got my divisions of ten, I look at the armies that have been chosen. If I have a division where players have chosen ten different armies then that is sorted straight away. I do not have to do anything. But usually I will find that there are some selections that are the same. So, first of all, I would look to see if any of the players had just selected three armies and not put them in order of preference. That would indicate to me that they were equally happy with any of the three choices they had made and I could just select a different option for them. If that didn't solve the issue and all the players had made 1-2-3 choices, I would look at the 2nd, and then the 3rd armies, in their list, and usually I would be able to come up with a solution. Very occasionally, I will have a division where the above methods do not provide me with an answer. Then I will re-start the process by giving everyone their second choice armies and then I will see how that looks. Exceptionally, if that doesn't work (and most seasons it does) then I will re-start yet again by giving everyone their third choice armies to see if that provides a better result. If I have players in these "difficult" divisions who have just selected three armies without any prioritisation then that is very helpful and makes it more likely that I will find a solution. In extremely rare cases (I think it happened 2 or 3 times in the 4 seasons of the FOG1DL) where I am unable to find a way forward, I will ask someone to pick a fourth army. If I do ask someone to do this then I will make sure that they have got what they wanted in the other sections for that season. I will also keep a note of the players name so that they are not asked to make a fourth selection in future seasons.

So that is the process. I wouldn't claim that it is scientific or anything, but it worked perfectly OK in the FOG1DL. I don't think I had anyone drop out of the tournament because of my deliberations. For example, if a player had chosen the Romans but ended up with the Macedonians or Seleucids for one section, and they had got all their other choices, then there is not much of an issue there really, is there? I do keep lists from season to season, so while players are free to choose the same army or armies in subsequent seasons, it does mean that they will miss out if someone else has chosen the same army for the first time.

I do spend a lot of time on this process and I take care with it. Obviously if you are not seen to be doing your best for players then the drop-out rate will go up. We had a very low drop-out rate in FOG1DL.

[klayeckles]

MAYBE TO HELP PETE OUT HERE...TO AVOID ENDLESS DISCUSSION ON BEST ARMIES, AND FIRST CHOICE AND SO ON...LET ME SAY A COUPLE THINGS:

The point is to have a good time!
It won't be perfect!
You will not get your absolute favorite army every timeperiod and every league. but good generals have to deal with the troops they have...great generals win with crumby troops or good troops. and this is true in the league...the best players often typically get last pick and thus go with their third choice and they still often win.
REMEMBER...since everyone doesn't get their fave army, there will be lots of variety...and that means FUN!
those that stick with the league are a great bunch of folks...so enjoy some banter, and some challenges...win some and lose a few, but in doing so learn a few tricks from other players. you get 10 games, at your pace, and get to face a wide variety of armies and players.
FOG 1 had a strong and loyal following with the digital league, and its predecessor going on for years...so the folks quickly learned that this is a community...of good folk looking for a challenge, for some fun, and a teenie tiny bit of glory. I encourage folks to join with this attitude and philosophy. Folks that do will face a great challenge, have lots of fun, make some friends, and their game will be much improved.

the league is a lot of work to keep going...and Pete and Co.do a great, mostly thankless job.
THANKS FOR THE HARD WORK MAKING FOR A GREAT GAME WITH DEPTH, SUBTLY, AND A STRONG LONG LASTING COMMUNITY...hope to see you all on the field of glory

[stockwellpete]

Cheers Klay.

It will be fine once we get going. I am working on a new design for one of the sections that will give players an even greater choice of armies to play with. I reckon that a player entering each section of the competition that is available will end up playing with between 15-20 armies over the course of the season. A player getting to the final of the themed event will have used 7 armies just in that section alone. I will be releasing details of another section on Wednesday.

[76mm]

Hi, sorry, one more question: one of the things I like about the tourney rules is that scoring is set up to discourage "turtling". But in this league it seems like players are encouraged to turtle to get a draw (for one point) rather than lose (for zero points). Are there any league rules/etiquette to discourage turtling? The Late Antiquity section in particular seems to have a lot of mismatched armies, which might otherwise encourage the practice.

[stockwellpete]

Hi, sorry, one more question: one of the things I like about the tourney rules is that scoring is set up to discourage "turtling". But in this league it seems like players are encouraged to turtle to get a draw (for one point) rather than lose (for zero points). Are there any league rules/etiquette to discourage turtling? The Late Antiquity section in particular seems to have a lot of mismatched armies, which might otherwise encourage the practice.

It hasn't been too much of a problem in the past and I think the map generator that we have in FOG2 provides much better battlefields than we had with FOG1. The new deployment rules make it harder to use one side of the map for defensive purposes from the outset as well. In general, the game itself rewards attacking play. I think the contrast between getting 4 points for a win and only 1 point for a "defensive" draw is fairly decisive. Players are not going to win promotions or vouchers by "turtling", but occasionally, a player might find his army outmatched by his opponent's and then taking up a defensive position is quite legitimate. Players are permitted to agree draws at any point in the match in this tournament.

The Late Antiquity section will have more armies in due course. There is another expansion (Legions Triumphant) that will eventually increase the available armies to around 80.

[76mm]

Have you thought about having a “B Team” or “Periphery” section featuring only the second rate armies? In other words, like the Late Antiquity section now, but excluding Rome, Seleucid, and maybe Ptolomaic? It would seem like a good way to get players to use little-used armies and have some fun match-ups. There are several armies i like playing in the Late Antiquity section (Slaves, Sertorius), but I’m not sur that playing them against Rome and Seleucid in a ten-game league would be very fun.

[stockwellpete]

Have you thought about having a “B Team” or “Periphery” section featuring only the second rate armies? In other words, like the Late Antiquity section now, but excluding Rome, Seleucid, and maybe Ptolomaic? It would seem like a good way to get players to use little-used armies and have some fun match-ups. There are several armies i like playing in the Late Antiquity section (Slaves, Sertorius), but I’m not sur that playing them against Rome and Seleucid in a ten-game league would be very fun.

Yes, there is a fourth section that I will be releasing details of in a few days time that does exactly that. It features 9 historical match-ups that maybe are not played too often. Players entering this section will not choose their armies but will get to play with 9 different armies chosen by pot luck (I.e. my trusty old bingo kit again).

[76mm]

Yes, there is a fourth section that I will be releasing details of in a few days time that does exactly that. It features 9 historical match-ups that maybe are not played too often. Players entering this section will not choose their armies but will get to play with 9 different armies chosen by pot luck (I.e. my trusty old bingo kit again).

Sounds interesting...hopefully you'll be able to post the details before the 8th, when recruiting for all of the sections begins? I am definitely in for classical antiquity section, and then either the late antiquity or potluck sections, depending on how it works.

[FroBodine]

Hello - this sounds wonderful. I'm not sure I understand what the different sections mean. Are they just basically different leagues?

Yes, that's right. There will be four league sections with up to 5 divisions of 10 players in each and there will be a themed event with 3 pools of 16 players in each. Each pool is divided into qualifying groups of 4 players and the top 2 from each group progress to the knock out stage.

You posted information about section 4, with the nine matchups. That one sounds interesting. Do I just sign up for that one, or do I have to take part in all the different sections?

You can enter as many sections as you wish. It all depends on how much time you have to play. Some players will enter just one section, others might enter three or four. Each section will require you to play a maximum of nine matches and the playing season is 10 weeks long. So if you are completing a couple of matches each week at your normal rate of play then it is probably wise to enter just two sections. The main thing is not to leave yourself with too many matches to play.

What does the following mean?

The basic schedule will look like this.

Starts
1v2, 8v3, 5v6, 4v7, 10v9
7v1, 2v8, 3v5, 9v4, 6v10
1v3, 2v4, 10v5, 8v6,7v9
4v1, 3v2, 5v9,6v7,10v8
1v8, 2v7, 3v10, 4v5, 9v6
9v1, 10v2, 7v3, 6v4, 8v5
1v10, 2v9, 3v6, 4v8, 5v7,
5v1, 6v2, 9v3, 10v4, 8v7
1v6, 2v5, 9v8, 7v10, 3v4
Ends

This is just the fixture schedule to help me organise the event. The fixtures will be published in full so that it will be easy to see who you are playing and which army you should be using. You won't have to worry about the grid. Fixtures will be released in batches of three rounds so you can vary the order in which you play your matches.

Finally - your posts say if we want to enter the section, to enter our name in that thread. All the threads are locked, so how do we add our name and sign up, please?

That is because recruitment is not opening until January 8th as it says in the title of the thread. I am just getting everything ready at the moment. (stockwellpete)

[SpeedyCM]

What does the following mean?

The basic schedule will look like this.

Starts
1v2, 8v3, 5v6, 4v7, 10v9
7v1, 2v8, 3v5, 9v4, 6v10
1v3, 2v4, 10v5, 8v6,7v9
4v1, 3v2, 5v9,6v7,10v8
1v8, 2v7, 3v10, 4v5, 9v6
9v1, 10v2, 7v3, 6v4, 8v5
1v10, 2v9, 3v6, 4v8, 5v7,
5v1, 6v2, 9v3, 10v4, 8v7
1v6, 2v5, 9v8, 7v10, 3v4
Ends

Finally - your posts say if we want to enter the section, to enter our name in that thread. All the threads are locked, so how do we add our name and sign up, please?

That is simply a breakdown of who plays who in each round of the 10 man divisions, so each line is a round and over the course of the 9 round season everyone plays everyone else in the division once - at least that is how I understand it.

Signups don't start until next Monday the 8th so I expect the signup threads will be unlocked then.

[SpeedyCM]

That is simply a breakdown of who plays who in each round of the 10 man divisions, so each line is a round and over the course of the 9 round season everyone plays everyone else in the division once - at least that is how I understand it.

Signups don't start until next Monday the 8th so I expect the signup threads will be unlocked then.

Exactly right on both counts. Go to the top of the class!

Excellent!

Now a question from me, can you play all 9 matches in a division at the same time or is each round required to be played sequentially?

[stockwellpete]

Now a question from me, can you play all 9 matches in a division at the same time or is each round required to be played sequentially?

It depends on which sections you are playing in. In Classical Antiquity and Late Antiquity you could play all 9 matches at the same time if you wanted to. In the other two league sections the matches will be released in batches of three so you could play three at a time and then play further matches simultaneously when the next batch is released. The themed event is a scheduled section where matches are played sequentially.

[stockwellpete]

Section 4 has been renamed "From Cyrus to Tigranes" to better reflect the variety of armies available in this section. Cyrus was the founder of the first Persian empire and Tigranes was the leader of the Armenians in the first century BC. Section 4 sounds a bit too sinister for me.

[w_michael]

I usually play with Auto Force Selection. Can I set up my challenges that way, or do you want them all one way or the other (Auto or Default)?

[stockwellpete]

I usually play with Auto Force Selection. Can I set up my challenges that way, or do you want them all one way or the other (Auto or Default)?

We always allow players to choose their own army in the FOGDL so they all will be Default, Will.

[w_michael]

I usually play with Auto Force Selection. Can I set up my challenges that way, or do you want them all one way or the other (Auto or Default)?

We always allow players to choose their own army in the FOGDL so they all will be Default, Will.

No problem. Maybe I'll win more games that way.

[stockwellpete]

I have made a minor adjustment to Rule 5. Matches that end with both armies breaking on the same turn are now called "ties" and not "draws". The points to be won have not changed at all. Rule 5 now reads as follows . . .

5. Winning league points

Points will be awarded for wins, ties and draws as follows . . .

4 points – win
2 points – a tie where both armies break on the same turn (i.e. both reach 60% losses)
1 point – a draw, either where neither army has broken by the match turn limit (24 turns), or at any point in the match by agreement between the two players
0 points – loss

To win a game a player must “rout” the opponent’s army. The “marginal victory” rule will not apply in any circumstances.

If two or more players finish on the same number of points at the end of the season, the player with the most wins will be placed higher in the table. If two or more players have the same number of wins then the committee will look at the result(s) of the matches between those players to ascertain the final placing in the league table.

[nyczar]

Then, once I have got my divisions of ten, I look at the armies that have been chosen. If I have a division where players have chosen ten different armies then that is sorted straight away. I do not have to do anything. But usually I will find that there are some selections that are the same. So, first of all, I would look to see if any of the players had just selected three armies and not put them in order of preference. That would indicate to me that they were equally happy with any of the three choices they had made and I could just select a different option for them. If that didn't solve the issue and all the players had made 1-2-3 choices, I would look at the 2nd, and then the 3rd armies, in their list, and usually I would be able to come up with a solution. Very occasionally, I will have a division where the above methods do not provide me with an answer. Then I will re-start the process by giving everyone their second choice armies and then I will see how that looks. Exceptionally, if that doesn't work (and most seasons it does) then I will re-start yet again by giving everyone their third choice armies to see if that provides a better result. If I have players in these "difficult" divisions who have just selected three armies without any prioritisation then that is very helpful and makes it more likely that I will find a solution. In extremely rare cases (I think it happened 2 or 3 times in the 4 seasons of the FOG1DL) where I am unable to find a way forward, I will ask someone to pick a fourth army. If I do ask someone to do this then I will make sure that they have got what they wanted in the other sections for that season. I will also keep a note of the players name so that they are not asked to make a fourth selection in future seasons.

So that is the process. I wouldn't claim that it is scientific or anything, but it worked perfectly OK in the FOG1DL. I don't think I had anyone drop out of the tournament because of my deliberations. For example, if a player had chosen the Romans but ended up with the Macedonians or Seleucids for one section, and they had got all their other choices, then there is not much of an issue there really, is there? I do keep lists from season to season, so while players are free to choose the same army or armies in subsequent seasons, it does mean that they will miss out if someone else has chosen the same army for the first time.

I do spend a lot of time on this process and I take care with it. Obviously if you are not seen to be doing your best for players then the drop-out rate will go up. We had a very low drop-out rate in FOG1DL.

HI there, I am excited about participating in the league this time around. Apologies if I have missed this in the numerous threads. On your army selection process, I have to assume that you will be making divisions where the geography (and to some extent, date) settings is off. Thats is, the divisions might have armies that could not have fought in reality. What is driving this question is that the Scots have only 4 geographical opponents. Related, to what extent is date a consideration? for instance, it might be fun to play a hoplite era but I would be hesitant to match a hoplite based force againsts a pike one. Please share how these considerations are factored in when constructing a division of similarly skilled players.

lastly, it is a medium army on only a medium map?

Thanks.

looking forward to participating.