420 AD Grand Campaign

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Kabill
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Re: 420 AD Grand Campaign

Post by Kabill » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:15 pm

Lysimachos wrote:1) the Army, Architectures and Urban Infrastractures, Religious Buildings, Commercial Structures, Barracks and Siege Trains are national (id est an abstraction) and consequently don't suffer destruction if a specific province is lost.
Fortifications and Fleets pertain to a single province and are destroyed if this one is conquered.
Thanks, it was fortifications in particular that were making me wonder about this.
Lysimachos wrote:The difference is that VPs are not going to disappear with a defeat in battle, as it happens with stability levels that are subject to decrease in that case.
So, if ever, buildings which allow the earnings of VPs are better than Fiscal Measures that, on their part, are much more manageable, costing less and being accessible also to player with smaller incomes.
Unless I'm misreading the rules, I don't think that's right.

Firstly, lost battles are stated to cost VPs as well as Stability, and lost provinces cost further VPs. As such, VPs do disappear with defeats in battle as much if not more than stability.

Secondly, even if that weren't the case, the fact that you can lose stability from battles doesn't make it less valuable than VPs (and in fact makes it more valuable because of the costs of low stability).

For example, if I started with 4 Stability, used Tax Exemptions to raise it to 8, and then through defeats lost 4 stability, I would end up back on 4 (worth 4VPs at the end of the game). In contrast, if I started with 4 Stability, upgraded to a Temple Complex to raise to 6 Stability and +2VPs, then through defeats lost 4 Stability, I would end up on 2 Stability with +2 VPs (worth a total of 4VPs at the end of the game). In terms of VPs, the second scenario ends up the same as the first. But it also ends up 2 stability points down and in the "danger threshold" which is a lot worse.

As such, I can't see an instance where VPs are more valuable than Stability, since each Stability Point is worth a VP anyway but also moves you away from the low-stability threshold. It's not a game-breaker by any means but religious buildings on these grounds does seem to be weaker than tax exemptions.
Kabill's Great Generals Mod for FoG2: http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=492&t=84915

bbogensc
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Re: 420 AD Grand Campaign

Post by bbogensc » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:09 pm

Ok got it now. Thanks! If you replenish the army does it have immediate effect that turn?

Lysimachos
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Re: 420 AD Grand Campaign

Post by Lysimachos » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:26 pm

Kabill wrote:Unless I'm misreading the rules, I don't think that's right.

Firstly, lost battles are stated to cost VPs as well as Stability, and lost provinces cost further VPs. As such, VPs do disappear with defeats in battle as much if not more than stability.

Secondly, even if that weren't the case, the fact that you can lose stability from battles doesn't make it less valuable than VPs (and in fact makes it more valuable because of the costs of low stability).

For example, if I started with 4 Stability, used Tax Exemptions to raise it to 8, and then through defeats lost 4 stability, I would end up back on 4 (worth 4VPs at the end of the game). In contrast, if I started with 4 Stability, upgraded to a Temple Complex to raise to 6 Stability and +2VPs, then through defeats lost 4 Stability, I would end up on 2 Stability with +2 VPs (worth a total of 4VPs at the end of the game). In terms of VPs, the second scenario ends up the same as the first. But it also ends up 2 stability points down and in the "danger threshold" which is a lot worse.

As such, I can't see an instance where VPs are more valuable than Stability, since each Stability Point is worth a VP anyway but also moves you away from the low-stability threshold. It's not a game-breaker by any means but religious buildings on these grounds does seem to be weaker than tax exemptions.
Hi Kabill,
first of all you're right noting that per the published rules VPs desappears with defeats as stability levels, but this is only a raw mistake due to the copy of a transitory version of them that I confused for the final one.
In fact also in the previous "240 BC Grand Campaign" the VPs could only be gained, not lost, and it was only when initially amending the older rules that I thought for some moment of modifying this feature, then abandoning the idea, so much that I replied VPs cannot be lost.
To clarify the situation I will of course immediately edit the template of the rules in this thread.

Secondly I find that your remarks about the costs of low stability is correct.
To solve the problem we could raise the benefits of:
- sanctuaries to 3 SL + 1 VP
- templar complexes to 4 SL + 1 VP
- academies / boroughs to 3 PL + 1 VP
- royal palaces / towns to 4 PL + 1 VP
making VPs the reward for building the complete set of a construction line.
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Lysimachos
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Re: 420 AD Grand Campaign

Post by Lysimachos » Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:29 pm

Hi all!
Given the fact that no other player has joined the fray we are going to start the campaign with 6 nations, having eliminated the Visigoths and merged the Western and Eastern Romans, so having 3 nations centered in the west (Vandals, Hunnic and Romans) and 3 in the east (Sassanid, Hephtalite and Kushans).
Having accordingly modified the map and the list of armies, it’s time to start.
In order to determine the sequence of player for the 1st turn I’m going to use a dice roll generator, then posting the results on the thread.
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Re: 420 AD Grand Campaign

Post by Lysimachos » Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:40 pm

Here are the results of the dice roll.

Hephtalithes 6
Huns 56
Kushans 74
Romans 80
Sassanids 40
Vandals 48

It means that the order of 1st turn will be Romans, Kushans, Huns, Vandals, Sassanids and Hephtalites.
During the 2nd turn we'll have Kushans, Huns, Vandals, Sassanids, Hephtalites and Romans.
During the 3rd turn we'll have Huns, Vandals, Sassanids, Hephtalites, Romans and Kushans.
During the 4th turn we'll have Vandals, Sassanids, Hephtalites, Romans Kushans and Huns.
During the 5th turn we'll have Sassanids, Hephtalites, Romans Kushans, Huns and Vandals.
During the 6th turn we'll have Hephtalites, Romans Kushans, Huns, Vandals and Sassanids,
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Re: 420 AD Grand Campaign

Post by Lysimachos » Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:51 pm

Taking care of the desire of players nations are assigned as follows:
Hephtalites - hidde
Huns - Cunningcairn
Kushans - klayeckes
Romans - Lysimachos
Sassanids - Kabill
Vandals - bbogensc

taking care of this dice roll between Cunningcairn (16) and hidde (35) about taking the Hephtalite.
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Re: 420 AD Grand Campaign

Post by Lysimachos » Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:57 pm

Here are the results of the dice roll for the drawing of cards

Hephtalithes 13 - Spy
Huns 89 - Mercenaries
Kushans 43 - Traitor
Romans 35 - Diplomat
Sassanids 96 - Scouts
Vandals 19 - Spy
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Lysimachos
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Re: 420 AD Grand Campaign

Post by Lysimachos » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:14 pm

Roman 1st turn action

Use the Diplomat card to subjugate Narbonensis
Build Ramparts in Dalmatia (Dlm) / ½ action
Build Bridges / 1 action
Land Attack from Bruttium to Trinacria (Trn / Vandals) / 1 action
Last edited by Lysimachos on Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 420 AD Grand Campaign

Post by Lysimachos » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:17 pm

Next orders of the 1st turn must be sent in the following order:

kleyeckles (Kushans)
Cunningcairn (Huns)
bbogensc (Vandals)
Kabill (Sassanids)
hidde (Hephtalites)
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bbogensc
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Re: 420 AD Grand Campaign

Post by bbogensc » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:12 am

Maybe I'm not reading this correctly... on the turn order the rules said it was a die roll and then alphabetical:

"At the beginning of the game a roll of dice will determine which player will start as first and the other will follow in alphabetical order per nation (for example player D will start, followed by E, F, G, H, A, B and C. During the second turn player E will start, followed by F, G, H, A, B, C and D, and so on)".

So, the high roll was Roman, so shouldn't the order be Roman Sassanid Vandal Heph Huns Kushan ?

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Re: 420 AD Grand Campaign

Post by Lysimachos » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:00 am

bbogensc wrote:Maybe I'm not reading this correctly... on the turn order the rules said it was a die roll and then alphabetical:

"At the beginning of the game a roll of dice will determine which player will start as first and the other will follow in alphabetical order per nation (for example player D will start, followed by E, F, G, H, A, B and C. During the second turn player E will start, followed by F, G, H, A, B, C and D, and so on)".

So, the high roll was Roman, so shouldn't the order be Roman Sassanid Vandal Heph Huns Kushan ?
That's right, bbogensc.
It's my mistake.

The correct order is this one:
1st turn / Romans, Sassanids, Vandals, Hephtalites, Huns, Kushans
2nd turn / Sassanids, Vandals, Hephtalites, Huns, Kushans, Romans
3rd turn / Vandals, Hephtalites, Huns, Kushans, Romans, Sassanids
4th turn / Hephtalites, Huns, Kushans, Romans, Sassanids, Vandals
5th turn / Huns, Kushans, Romans, Sassanids, Vandals, Hephtalites
6th turn / Kushans, Romans, Sassanids, Vandals, Hephtalites, Huns

That said, next orders of the 1st turn must be sent in the following order:
Kabill (Sassanids)
bbogensc (Vandals)
hidde (Hephtalites)
Cunningcairn (Huns)
kleyeckles (Kushans)

(this also let us begin the campaign though klayeckles is probably away for 1 week, because the other orders may be sent and he will give us his whenever possible)
"Audentis fortuna iuvat"
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Lysimachos
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Re: 420 AD Grand Campaign

Post by Lysimachos » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:26 am

Today I've edited the rules inserting the new benefits for Academies, Royal Palace, Sanctuaries and Templar Complexes.

I've also made a clarification about Fleets and Fortifications explaining that these kind of buildings can't obviously be built when a province is under attack.

In the afternoon I'll also amend the map inserting the asterisk for every Capital Province which are:
Latium (Lat) for the Romans
Massylia (Mas) for the Vandals
Marcomannia (Mrc) for the Huns
Persis (Prs) for the Sassanids
Tigrakauda (Tgk) for the Hephtalites
Taxila (Txl) for the Kushans
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bbogensc
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Re: 420 AD Grand Campaign

Post by bbogensc » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:37 pm

Many thanks for the clarification. Apologies, a couple more questions as I plan the first move:

(1) The rules seem to say one "Attack" may run simultaneously. So, I read then a player who has been attacked during another player turn can still order an "Attack" (using 1 action for a land attack) as long as it is not from the province that has been attacked, correct? Furthermore, a player could even be attacked many times in different provinces from neutral or other player provinces also all during the same turn and could have many battles running on that turn as defensive actions plus one "Attack", correct?

(2) If I understand correctly, battles queue up until the end of all players' moves during the turn and then begin at the end of the phase. However, the playing of a card seems to apply with immediate effect. Is that correct? So, I read that now Rome has used the Diplomat card to subjegate a province, another player could launch an independent attack against that province during the same turn, as example. Likewise, when the reinforcement card can even be played and has an immediate effect, (unlike building fortifications and fleets).

(3) You seem to have answered my other question which was that fortifications and fleets are not like cards, they do not apply to queued battles. So, similarly, if a player had built a Barracks and orders a Levy during a turn it does not occur immediately on the battles queued for that turn, whereas if a player plays the Reinforcement card and purchases reinforcements it does occur immediately, correct?

Thanks again. bbogensc

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Re: 420 AD Grand Campaign

Post by Kabill » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:10 pm

Sassanid Turn 1:

Build Bridges (1 Action)
Launch Attack from Mesopotamia (Sassanid) to Gerraea (Independent) (1 Action) using Scouts card to select Desert map type.
Fund invasion from Palmyrene (Independent) to Syria (Roman) (1/2 Action)

I am assuming that I can save the Scouts card until all player turns are entered but please let me know if that's mistaken as there's a good chance I will use it on one of these attacks otherwise.
Last edited by Kabill on Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kabill's Great Generals Mod for FoG2: http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=492&t=84915

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Re: 420 AD Grand Campaign

Post by Lysimachos » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:07 pm

bbogensc wrote:Many thanks for the clarification. Apologies, a couple more questions as I plan the first move:

(1) The rules seem to say one "Attack" may run simultaneously. So, I read then a player who has been attacked during another player turn can still order an "Attack" (using 1 action for a land attack) as long as it is not from the province that has been attacked, correct? Furthermore, a player could even be attacked many times in different provinces from neutral or other player provinces also all during the same turn and could have many battles running on that turn as defensive actions plus one "Attack", correct?

(2) If I understand correctly, battles queue up until the end of all players' moves during the turn and then begin at the end of the phase. However, the playing of a card seems to apply with immediate effect. Is that correct? So, I read that now Rome has used the Diplomat card to subjegate a province, another player could launch an independent attack against that province during the same turn, as example. Likewise, when the reinforcement card can even be played and has an immediate effect, (unlike building fortifications and fleets).

(3) You seem to have answered my other question which was that fortifications and fleets are not like cards, they do not apply to queued battles. So, similarly, if a player had built a Barracks and orders a Levy during a turn it does not occur immediately on the battles queued for that turn, whereas if a player plays the Reinforcement card and purchases reinforcements it does occur immediately, correct?

Thanks again. bbogensc
1) your assumptions are all right with the clarification that a player, thoug attacked many times, has still the chance of making one land or amphibious attack and one indepenent attack, as Kabill has done.
2) & 3) your assumption are partly right. Attacks will start when every player will have declared his move in order to let him respond to an attack playing cards as Naval Technology, Reinforcements and Scouts that can be used not only during the turn of the owner but also when he is challenged in battle by another player.
The effects of every card and random events will always take immediately place.
The effects of any other action will take immediately place not having to wait the next turn, saved the fact that those effects are not liable to influence the outcome of an attack already launched during that same turn against the player or to authorize him to launch an attack otherwise impossible (so, for example, if I am the 3rd player and the 2nd has attacked me, my Provincial Levy action won't influence the size of my army in that battle but, if the 5th player will launch another attack against me, I will have the possibility of using the effects of the Provincial Levy / in the same situation if the 2nd player build a fleet during his turn he is not authorized to immediately launch an amphibious attack vs the 3rd player, but the same fleet will be liable to defend the province in the case of an attack by the 5th player).
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Lysimachos
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Re: 420 AD Grand Campaign

Post by Lysimachos » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:11 pm

Kabill wrote: I am assuming that I can save the Scouts card until all player turns are entered but please let me know if that's mistaken as there's a good chance I will use it on one of these attacks otherwise.
If you want to use this card in an attack declared by you you have to draw it immediately.
If you prefer to preserve it for a defensive battle in an attack launched by another player, you can hold it in your hand until the necessity arise, being able to play it when challenged in battle by someone else.
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Re: 420 AD Grand Campaign

Post by bbogensc » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:08 pm

Vandals Turn 1:

(1) Play Spy card (Kushans), obtain Traitor card.
(2) Play Traitor card, Br (Bruttium). Conquer province w/immediate effect without fighting (as per Traitor card rule); quash attack.
(3) Build bridges [1 action].
(4) Land attack Btc Baetica (Vandals) to Lst Lusitania (Neutral) [1 action].
(5) Neutral attack Crn (Neutral) Aeg Egypt (Roman) [1/2 action].

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Re: 420 AD Grand Campaign

Post by Kabill » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:14 pm

Lysimachos wrote:
Kabill wrote: I am assuming that I can save the Scouts card until all player turns are entered but please let me know if that's mistaken as there's a good chance I will use it on one of these attacks otherwise.
If you want to use this card in an attack declared by you you have to draw it immediately.
If you prefer to preserve it for a defensive battle in an attack launched by another player, you can hold it in your hand until the necessity arise, being able to play it when challenged in battle by someone else.
Ok, thanks. If it's not too late then, I'll add it to my attack on Gerraea. I'll edit the post to reflect this but since I'd already submitted my turn disregard it if that's a problem.
Kabill's Great Generals Mod for FoG2: http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=492&t=84915

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Re: 420 AD Grand Campaign

Post by Lysimachos » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:04 am

bbogensc wrote:Vandals Turn 1:

(2) Play Traitor card, Br (Bruttium). Conquer province w/immediate effect without fighting (as per Traitor card rule); quash attack.
Hi bbogensc
though not literally specified in the rules I believe it is impossible to play the Traitor card against Bruttium, because this is the starting point of an already launched attack, whose effect are not liable to be obliterated.
The same reason was at the base of the rules stating:
- "If a province owned by the player is already under attack it won’t be liable to become a starting point."
- "Traitor allows the owner to conquer 1 province of another nation bordering with his nation without fighting."
Trinacria is already under attack and can't be considered a liable starting point of any invasion, while the Traitor card to be played needs that no fighting is ongoing.
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Re: 420 AD Grand Campaign

Post by bbogensc » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:00 pm

Hi Lysimachos. The Traitor card rule specifically says it functions not as an attack. The province is conquered without a battle. This happens immediately also. The rules you have cited relate to cross battles.

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