Page 1 of 1

Problem of Byzantine complexity.....

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:16 pm
by devoncop
OK.....

You are trying to combat Byzantines.....mobile,Armoured archer/Lancer combinations of good quality, a bit of decent heavy infantry (Armoured) and a couple of massed archers....

You have masses of medium protected infantry including impact foot.....

Lots of archer and javelin foot skirmishers but no cavalry.....

How on earth do you stand a chance v the Byzantine machine.......any ideas from the experts out there ?

Re: Problem of Byzantine complexity.....

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:00 pm
by Adebar
You simply have no chance against the Byzantines.

For God is with them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rks5e4b1Hbo

:wink:

Re: Problem of Byzantine complexity.....

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:00 pm
by MikeC_81
Max out shooting and shoot up their expensive cav. They have no infantry that is better than 100 poa on impact and 100 in melee before armour. Just don't charge into dart bow infantry. ZoC them and make them come to you. You should be well ahead on the number of maneuver elements given their high cost

Re: Problem of Byzantine complexity.....

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:01 pm
by devoncop
Adebar wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:00 pm
You simply have no chance against the Byzantines.

For God is with them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rks5e4b1Hbo

:wink:
Not exactly a morale booster :!:

Re: Problem of Byzantine complexity.....

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:10 pm
by NikiforosFokas
Come on, guys. The Sassanian list is better even if the Byzantines, in the end, kicked their ...
Adebar you are my man :)

Re: Problem of Byzantine complexity.....

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:15 pm
by devoncop
NikiforosFokas wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:10 pm
Come on, guys. The Sassanian list is better even if the Byzantines, in the end, kicked their ...
Adebar you are my man :)
Jeez guys.......

This isn't doing much for my hopes :lol:

Re: Problem of Byzantine complexity.....

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:02 pm
by Cunningcairn
devoncop wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:16 pm
OK.....

You are trying to combat Byzantines.....mobile,Armoured archer/Lancer combinations of good quality, a bit of decent heavy infantry (Armoured) and a couple of massed archers....

You have masses of medium protected infantry including impact foot.....

Lots of archer and javelin foot skirmishers but no cavalry.....

How on earth do you stand a chance v the Byzantine machine.......any ideas from the experts out there ?
What army are you using?

Re: Problem of Byzantine complexity.....

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:06 am
by devoncop
Jewish Revolt ....no Cav and only light skirmish infantry.

Re: Problem of Byzantine complexity.....

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:27 am
by melm
That's anachronism match. :lol:

Re: Problem of Byzantine complexity.....

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:50 am
by devoncop
Exactly !!

Re: Problem of Byzantine complexity.....

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:48 pm
by Nosy_Rat
Doesn't jewish revolt have like a dozen or so archers and slingers available to them?
Just shoot the cavalry.

Re: Problem of Byzantine complexity.....

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:40 pm
by devoncop
They have six of each but the Byzantine Cav is largely armoured and to get close enough to start causing meaningful casualties exposes them to be ridden down and routed.

The Byzantine massed archers are also pretty deadly to skirmishers and the bow armed lancers and flankers also cause a lot of damage.

Re: Problem of Byzantine complexity.....

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:06 pm
by General Shapur
I had my sanmites wiped out if thats any help - lol

Re: Problem of Byzantine complexity.....

Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 1:09 pm
by Hendricus
If you are revolting with a rabble force against soldiers you have to set up a custom battle with numbers in your favor if you want to win.

Re: Problem of Byzantine complexity.....

Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 12:15 am
by kongxinga
Looking at the lists you have way more shooters than the Byzantines do. While their cavalry can somewhat shoot, you can mostly ignore the 50% bow guys since if they are shooting they are not charging which is right where you want them to be. Foot shooters should win pound versus pound versus horse shooters, so you are fine there as well. 50% bow is mostly to force engagements against opponents with 0 bow, not trade shots with 100% bow.

As for the pure lance cavalry pressuring your skirmishers, place a few of your irregulars (light spear and swords) as a ZOC trap to block movement from their lancers. Even in the open, even with the medium infantry malus versus cavalry, ordered infantry as a rule can withstand head on charges from cavalry. Doubly more so if you find some rough ground to stand on, or a fence or a stream to avoid the open penalty. Assign a few of those irregulars spaced out 1 or 2 spaces away from one another to block their cav from your skirmishers so they can continue shooting or pass through them to reform. These ZOC blockers are meant to stop the cavalry from completely sweeping away your skirmishers. If they get charged head on they are doing their job.

Even after allocating ZOC blockers, you still have enough infantry to form a flank threat in the main battle line since you should have longer lines. I would say hold off from engaging till your shooters dealt with the cav, but if their cav has engaged your ZOC blockers, and you have longer lines to flank, start advancing to pressure his infantry line.Use your extra units to wrap around his flank, or hold them in reserve to flank charge breakthroughs (one on one the Byzantines should win so expect some push backs which you should flank charge).

Your Zealots can be your schwerpunkt to punch holes in their line (limatanei?). A breakthrough should create holes where you can use your extra units to exploit and flank even more.

Re: Problem of Byzantine complexity.....

Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 3:07 pm
by devoncop
kongxinga wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:15 am
Looking at the lists you have way more shooters than the Byzantines do. While their cavalry can somewhat shoot, you can mostly ignore the 50% bow guys since if they are shooting they are not charging which is right where you want them to be. Foot shooters should win pound versus pound versus horse shooters, so you are fine there as well. 50% bow is mostly to force engagements against opponents with 0 bow, not trade shots with 100% bow.

As for the pure lance cavalry pressuring your skirmishers, place a few of your irregulars (light spear and swords) as a ZOC trap to block movement from their lancers. Even in the open, even with the medium infantry malus versus cavalry, ordered infantry as a rule can withstand head on charges from cavalry. Doubly more so if you find some rough ground to stand on, or a fence or a stream to avoid the open penalty. Assign a few of those irregulars spaced out 1 or 2 spaces away from one another to block their cav from your skirmishers so they can continue shooting or pass through them to reform. These ZOC blockers are meant to stop the cavalry from completely sweeping away your skirmishers. If they get charged head on they are doing their job.

Even after allocating ZOC blockers, you still have enough infantry to form a flank threat in the main battle line since you should have longer lines. I would say hold off from engaging till your shooters dealt with the cav, but if their cav has engaged your ZOC blockers, and you have longer lines to flank, start advancing to pressure his infantry line.Use your extra units to wrap around his flank, or hold them in reserve to flank charge breakthroughs (one on one the Byzantines should win so expect some push backs which you should flank charge).

Your Zealots can be your schwerpunkt to punch holes in their line (limatanei?). A breakthrough should create holes where you can use your extra units to exploit and flank even more.

Many thanks for these suggestions.

My experience with skirmishers v the bow cavalry..which the Byzantines can field in big numbers is that because of the excellent quality of the cavalry they are actually remarkably effective in the missile contests but your point about the zoc use of irregular infantry is a good one and one I shall definitely bear in mind.

Thank you for taking the time to make these suggestions !