Why did the Romans make their heavy foot worse?

[kvnrthr]

This is not really a gameplay question, just one about how the history is modeled.

In game the 3rd century Roman infantry is described to use javelins and have attached archers. The description and my (relatively poor) understanding of history makes it sound like they made a trade off, losing their strong charge to get some ranged capability.

However the way the new heavy foot are modeled in game doesn't reflect the description. We can put aside Limitanei since I understand they are not supposed to be that well trained. Compared to the Legionaries, the Legio Comitatensis and Palatina units lose 100 POA on the attack and gain nothing in return since their bow capability is folded into darts. Against armored units they lose some more POA on both attack and defense.

I'm not too concerned game balance wise since you do gain more capabilities in the new army list. But as far as the heavy foot is concerned, the game seems to say the Roman reforms made their infantry worse for no gain.

Is there some benefit to the new troops in game that I am missing? Or am I not interpreting the history correctly?

[melm]

According to Vegetinus work Epitome of Military Science, he says
"The name 'legion' survives in the army even today, but its strength of former times has been broken by neglect, since corruption usurped the rewards of valour and soldiers were promoted through influence when they used to be promoted for actual work."
His words provide the impression that the quality of late Roman foot is no longer as good as their predecessors. Another reason is that army is no longer popular in late Roman period. So it may be hard to enlist qualified citizen into the army. Instead, more were enlisted beyond border. The morale, loyalty and convenience of communication is questionable. Hence, the quality rating can be downed from "superior" to "average" except Legio Palatina.

The tactic of Roman foot has also changed from 3rd century. They were now deployed more defensively, adding archer to boost their capability to absorb enemy charge. So in the game, comitatnesis only receives bonus POA while receiving charge. In this period, the role of horses on the battlefield has grown more and more importantly. Foot became subordinate to cavalry. At least, I have such feeling when I was reading Procopius's History of the Wars.

FOGII Legionary.jpg (14.42 KiB) Viewed 2609 times

FOGII Legio Comitatensis.jpg (16.28 KiB) Viewed 2609 times

During impact phase, denfensively, legionary receives 200 POA while comitatensis receives 100*80%+100*80%=160(or 100*80%+66*80%=133). It looks not too bad regarding the prices for each unit. The win percentage difference is roughly between 13%-22%.

In my opinion, it's okay when we model the foot vs foot battles for different time period but I don't know foot vs cav.

[zakblood]

compare the late Roman's or even the early to mid Romans to the Immortals etc and you get a really good understanding of what a unit can do with missile units in-bedded into it, for me it's a really good to great unit which only gets improved once bow / missile items are added to it, as long as you change the way you play with them, as no longer are they purely a attacking / assaulting force and can now go head to toe with anyone and not only attack, but defend at distance, something they just couldn't do before the bow units were added imo.

[SnuggleBunnies]

Sorry Melm, but your post is not accurate regarding Impact POAs

The earlier legionaries are Impact Foot, which are +200 vs any foot and +100 vs any cav

The later ones are Light Spear and Darts, with the 20% Bow just counting as part of the Darts POA.
The Light Spear is +100 vs any, unless charging mounted shock troops.
Darts are defensive only, and +100, or + 66 vs armored infantry or heavily armored cavalry.

So, later Legions are at +100 when attacking infantry instead of the +200 of the earlier Impact foot, but they are at +200 vs charging cavalry as opposed to the +100 of the Impact troops. So they lose some offensive capability but are more resilient vs cavalry, which is useful because there are so many Lancer types running around in the later era.

Now, granted, the earlier legions are still more useful troops, but combined with their great expense thanks to quality, they might be less useful against many of the later Empire's foes.

As to why this 'devolution' in capabilities happened, I think there is nothing but a lot of conjecture; but my impression is that the endless civil wars of the 3rd century destroyed the infrastructure of the army, and that Emperors attempted to make armies that were capable of defending the empire but not so large that they could attempt a coup. Sometimes this balance worked out; sometimes coups happened anyway, or the armies failed on the frontier. But I think there really are no great primary sources that go into the details and really answer these questions for us in a way that can put the debates to rest.

[melm]

Sorry Melm, but your post is not accurate regarding Impact POAs

The earlier legionaries are Impact Foot, which are +200 vs any foot and +100 vs any cav

The later ones are Light Spear and Darts, with the 20% Bow just counting as part of the Darts POA.
The Light Spear is +100 vs any, unless charging mounted shock troops.
Darts are defensive only, and +100, or + 66 vs armored infantry or heavily armored cavalry.

So, later Legions are at +100 when attacking infantry instead of the +200 of the earlier Impact foot, but they are at +200 vs charging cavalry as opposed to the +100 of the Impact troops. So they lose some offensive capability but are more resilient vs cavalry, which is useful because there are so many Lancer types running around in the later era.

Now, granted, the earlier legions are still more useful troops, but combined with their great expense thanks to quality, they might be less useful against many of the later Empire's foes.

As to why this 'devolution' in capabilities happened, I think there is nothing but a lot of conjecture; but my impression is that the endless civil wars of the 3rd century destroyed the infrastructure of the army, and that Emperors attempted to make armies that were capable of defending the empire but not so large that they could attempt a coup. Sometimes this balance worked out; sometimes coups happened anyway, or the armies failed on the frontier. But I think there really are no great primary sources that go into the details and really answer these questions for us in a way that can put the debates to rest.

Perhaps I didn't understand that 80% light spear correctly. You mean comitatensis got full 100 light spear POA when receiving charge?

[melm]

Ah. You are right. In the patch notes
quote
Manual clarification: Units with 50% Light Spear, Lancers, Heavy Weapon or Defensive
Spearmen capability get full POA effect from these at Impact as if 100% of the unit had
the capability. In melee, however, 50% Swordsmen, Heavy Weapon or Defensive
Spearmen get 50% of the full POA.
end quote
I appreciate your help to correct my wrong understanding. Then comitatensis is even better than what I thought.

[kvnrthr]

Ah, I forgot that impact foot doesn't work against cavalry. That is a new capability, though I'm not sure it makes up for the 100 POA loss on the attack. It seems that some elements of the decline were out of the Roman military's hands though. I wonder at least if the Palatina units would retain some of the effectiveness of their predecessors given that they were "elite" units.

zakblood, unfortunately the new Legions can't shoot, bow capability 20% or below is changed to an impact effect according to the manual and my experiences in game .

I think the unit would be more interesting if we were allowed to shoot with our bow though. It wouldn't be too strong since 20% is so low but it would force enemies to charge in rather than sit in front.

[melm]

Ah, I forgot that impact foot doesn't work against cavalry. That is a new capability, though I'm not sure it makes up for the 100 POA loss on the attack. It seems that some elements of the decline were out of the Roman military's hands though. I wonder at least if the Palatina units would retain some of the effectiveness of their predecessors given that they were "elite" units.

zakblood, unfortunately the new Legions can't shoot, bow capability 20% or below is changed to an impact effect according to the manual and my experiences in game .

I think the unit would be more interesting if we were allowed to shoot with our bow though. It wouldn't be too strong since 20% is so low but it would force enemies to charge in rather than sit in front.

There are some posts discussing that 20% bow capability.

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 98#p748998

[jomni]

I believe it’s the just the sign of the times. Classic heavy foot are not effective in battling the horse archers from the East.

[oscarius]

The legions are suited to different foes that Rome faced. Republican / Julio-Claudian legions are good at slicing up barbarian heavy foot (and are the decisive arm of the army). Late Empire infantry are designed to act as an anvil while the much improved cavalry win the flanks. In period Late Rome is facing lots of cavalry heavy (both shock lancer barbarian forces and horse archer Persian and Hun armies).

Which army you'd rather field depends largely on the map and who you're fighting. I haven't used the late Roman/Byzantine lists yes but from personal experience fighting all cavalry armies with early Romans is a nightmare (my worst defeats ever actually come from this season playing Caesar-era Romania against cavalry army lists). However I also kicked the ass of a mostly infantry Byzantine force in the same tournament (while losing in a close fought battle to a more mixed cavalry - limenatei force who cleverly used flanking).

Long story short I think the army does a good job of representing the strengths and focuses of the Roman army in the different periods. Early Rome is a great heavy infantry offensive force (albeit small in size) that needs to seize the initiative and will win any fair straight up fight. Late Rome is a versatile and defensive army that ideally uses its infantry to hold the line (as mentioned earlier darts mean your foot is fairly safe against even heavy cavalry charges) and attrition down the foe enough for the cavalry to come into play. You can also spam limenatei if you want a large infantry army for flanking purposes while early Roman's will always be a small infantry army vulnerable to shooting and needing to be very careful of flanking disrupts.

[sIg3b]

Early Romans beg for being enveloped, though.