I'm done with this game!

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
AlexDetrojan
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Re: I'm done with this game!

Post by AlexDetrojan »

rbodleyscott wrote:It is also worth noting that piling multiple units on one enemy unit in frontal close combat is not the most efficient way of defeating them. Yes, your units will probably win eventually, but it won't be anything like as quick as if you engaged them with one unit, then charged them in the flank with another.
I am also well aware of this. Like most here and yourself I've been gaming for decades.
AlexDetrojan
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Re: I'm done with this game!

Post by AlexDetrojan »

As an aside, since it was so kindly pointed out, there is a thread also extant about this exact subject, don't you think that if other people are making an issue about this also that the developers should revisit their thinking on this matter rather than basically saying, well this is the way it is. Player feedback, no?
Alex
devoncop
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Re: I'm done with this game!

Post by devoncop »

Except that the overwhelming majority of players are hugely impressed with the game. Your argument is only valid if you believe a very small number of players who hold strong but nonetheless minority views should force changes in game design on the majority .........
AlexDetrojan
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Re: I'm done with this game!

Post by AlexDetrojan »

devoncop wrote:Except that the overwhelming majority of players are hugely impressed with the game. Your argument is only valid if you believe a very small number of players who hold strong but nonetheless minority views should force changes in game design on the majority .........
I also was hugely impressed with the game. This 'held fast' issue is a deal breaker. Realizing that corporations(slitherine) and forums are not democracies why not put forward a poll by the devs to find out exactly how many or not(minority views as you put it) find this(and other issues) a problem? Again player feedback, no?
Alex
devoncop
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Re: I'm done with this game!

Post by devoncop »

AlexDetrojan wrote:
devoncop wrote:Except that the overwhelming majority of players are hugely impressed with the game. Your argument is only valid if you believe a very small number of players who hold strong but nonetheless minority views should force changes in game design on the majority .........
I also was hugely impressed with the game. This 'held fast' issue is a deal breaker. Realizing that corporations(slitherine) and forums are not democracies why not put forward a poll by the devs to find out exactly how many or not(minority views as you put it) find this(and other issues) a problem? Again player feedback, no?
Alex

We shall agree to disagree on this one.

I respect the design decisions already made.
MikeC_81
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Re: I'm done with this game!

Post by MikeC_81 »

AlexDetrojan wrote:
MikeC_81 wrote:Alex, we have talked about this before and how to take advantage of this

viewtopic.php?f=477&t=84921

Also, if you think that winning an attack round = breaking an opponent's unit and are building strategies around that, you are the one at fault.
I am well aware of this. Please don't assume that this is how I plan my strategies. Was using my original example as just that, an example.
Pardon for the double post.
My response was in relation to this part of your post, emphasis mine.
This problem has ruined countless games where measured decisions by myself and finely executed attacks have all been for not due to this.
I mean there are only two logical possibilities here. Either:

a) You are making plans and attacks that are indeed good, strategically sound, based on a firm understanding of cause and effect based on the rules, and are simply getting screwed by exceedingly bad luck

or

b) You are making plans and attacks that you think are good, strategically sound, based on a firm understanding of cause and effect based on the rules, but in fact, are not actually good plays. Thus, there is a separation between the results you are seeing vs the results you believe you should be getting.


Situation A, where extreme luck is occurring, is possible. I mean people do win my country's lottery with regularity every other month despite the odds being rolling 1 in 47 correctly SEVEN TIMES IN A ROW :shock:. But it is unlikely yes?

Situation B, we can help you with but since you are "done with the game", I am not sure why you are still here nor am I going to invest much more energy in this thread.

I will close with my personal opinion that a good plan and a sound strategy needs to build in contingencies so you have an intelligent response for times when the dice don't go your way. If your strategy necessarily requires a particular result at a particular time and it falls apart if you don't get it with no room for adjustment, I would call that a bad strategy or a bad plan.
Stratford Scramble Tournament

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=494&t=99766&p=861093#p861093

FoG 2 Post Game Analysis Series on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKmEROEwX2fgjoQLlQULhPg/
bbogensc
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Re: I'm done with this game!

Post by bbogensc »

Alex, I just read through this thread and I sympathetic to your concerns. The initial response from RBS covers many of the situations that seem improbable in the gameplay are due to the game design where there is one good die roll that covers repeated combats on that unit. However, I also, like you, (and also several other players apparently that posted in reply to your message) have seen some game situations that seem to be actually impossible in gameplay, not improbable. These events are not explained by the odds of dice rolling (or the patient and excellent explanations of RBS), and are statistically impossible where the opponent has essentially a perfect turn and the enemy units are unbeatable on that turn or occasionally in the entire match. The odds of achieving the overall result are just impossible or so low it cannot even be calculated. As I've played the game more and more, the few matches where this has occurred (2 matches, I suspect up to 4), the impossible result seem to arise on the opponent's move after a medium to long delay on the opponent side. The strange results also seem to be accompanied by glitches in the game, where some units get extra movement, as example, meaning the game script is off, although I cannot say for sure this is related. I have documented several of those glitches in the screenshots during actual games and this occurred for me again in a game yesterday, where an opponent moved a medium foot 3 spaces on a critical move. I conclude from this that a very few players seem to have figured out a way to be able to re-run a turn over and over again on the host machine until the perfect or near-perfect result is achieved on a turn, to cheat essentially. Sometimes when the game reloads it seems to create a glitch which is noticeable to the other player. To be absolutely clear, I do not know technically how this acheived, but I believe it is real as similar cheating occurs on many online strategy games even those that do not run on the host computer. So, my sympathy to your experience is that I agree it is extraordinarily frustrating when this occurs to the player and the immediate inclination is to just quit. But, I don't think you should quit.
Kabill
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Re: I'm done with this game!

Post by Kabill »

bbogensc wrote:Alex, I just read through this thread and I sympathetic to your concerns. The initial response from RBS covers many of the situations that seem improbable in the gameplay are due to the game design where there is one good die roll that covers repeated combats on that unit. However, I also, like you, (and also several other players apparently that posted in reply to your message) have seen some game situations that seem to be actually impossible in gameplay, not improbable. These events are not explained by the odds of dice rolling (or the patient and excellent explanations of RBS), and are statistically impossible where the opponent has essentially a perfect turn and the enemy units are unbeatable on that turn or occasionally in the entire match. The odds of achieving the overall result are just impossible or so low it cannot even be calculated. As I've played the game more and more, the few matches where this has occurred (2 matches, I suspect up to 4), the impossible result seem to arise on the opponent's move after a medium to long delay on the opponent side. The strange results also seem to be accompanied by glitches in the game, where some units get extra movement, as example, meaning the game script is off, although I cannot say for sure this is related. I have documented several of those glitches in the screenshots during actual games and this occurred for me again in a game yesterday, where an opponent moved a medium foot 3 spaces on a critical move. I conclude from this that a very few players seem to have figured out a way to be able to re-run a turn over and over again on the host machine until the perfect or near-perfect result is achieved on a turn, to cheat essentially. Sometimes when the game reloads it seems to create a glitch which is noticeable to the other player. To be absolutely clear, I do not know technically how this acheived, but I believe it is real as similar cheating occurs on many online strategy games even those that do not run on the host computer. So, my sympathy to your experience is that I agree it is extraordinarily frustrating when this occurs to the player and the immediate inclination is to just quit. But, I don't think you should quit.
Not looking to comment on potential cheating - it's not something I've noticed but I don't doubt it's possible (actually, I think I know how you'd do it, but probably not a good idea to write about it here in case I'm right!) - but regarding glitches, I have experienced a bug once or twice before that could explain the extra unit move. It occurs sometimes when you undo a move, with the game not properly undoing everything and leaving a unit in the position it had moved to, but with its AP restored. Now I think about it though, I might have only seen this with a full command move (as opposed to individual unit move) so maybe it isn't related to what you've reported there. But it may plausibly still have been a bug of some kind rather than deliberate cheating.
Kabill's Great Generals Mod for FoG2: http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=492&t=84915
MikeC_81
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Re: I'm done with this game!

Post by MikeC_81 »

Two things:

There appears to be a movement bug when group move commands are made and undone which will result in a unit not resetting its position but will get its AP refunded. This was reported already by myself and I assume it is under investigation. Anyone abusing known glitches consistently is slime and should be outted.

As for the RNG of events it seems highly unlikely given the technical expertise required. It is not impossible for people to write trainers which which could alter the game state but it usually requires a dedicated and extremely skilled individual to do so.

Most individuals who do this on popular games and sell their hacks for money. I kinda doubt FoG is anywhere near that level of popularity for someone to bother with. It is also possible that they are exploiting some unknown glitch for this effect though that is also unlikely.
Stratford Scramble Tournament

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=494&t=99766&p=861093#p861093

FoG 2 Post Game Analysis Series on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKmEROEwX2fgjoQLlQULhPg/
bbogensc
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Re: I'm done with this game!

Post by bbogensc »

There are 2 movement bugs, one from undo, one where med foot gets extra AP. I reported this months ago.

On the re-running of turns I disagree with you Mike. Like Kabill, I suspect there is a simple way to run a turn multiple times in tandem offline that does not require a fu crack of the game.
MikeC_81
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Re: I'm done with this game!

Post by MikeC_81 »

bbogensc wrote:There are 2 movement bugs, one from undo, one where med foot gets extra AP. I reported this months ago.

On the re-running of turns I disagree with you Mike. Like Kabill, I suspect there is a simple way to run a turn multiple times in tandem offline that does not require a fu crack of the game.
Personally, I am skeptical. It reminds me of the conspiracy theories surrounding online poker and "rigged" tables which are never proven but always seem to pop up when an RNG is a key cog in the game. If you, Kabill, or anyone else thinks they know how to do this, you guys should immediately test it out and report the exact procedure on how to do this so the loophole can be closed ASAP by the developers. If a glitch exists that allows you to rerun turns, or parts of a turn without hacking the game, then there is absolutely nothing gained by remaining silent on this. The only beneficiaries to silence are those theoretical cheaters who are allowed to continue to operate the glitch without anyone knowing what to look for.

I have seen the 14/10 AP bug myself and that appears to be related to a group undo move command. I have seen the screenshots you posted in that thread but I have not been able to reproduce the results in anyway shape or form.

Additionally, who would these cheating individuals be? You say you have 2 matches where you *know* this occurred. What level of competition? A friendly, the FoG2DL, a Slitherine sanctioned tournament? I would imagine this person(s) who would cheat should be doing exceedingly well given that they are able to create what you describe as an impossible series of events.
Stratford Scramble Tournament

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=494&t=99766&p=861093#p861093

FoG 2 Post Game Analysis Series on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKmEROEwX2fgjoQLlQULhPg/
rbodleyscott
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Re: I'm done with this game!

Post by rbodleyscott »

The 14/10 thing is certainly a bug, not a hack. I have seen it once myself (in a single player game) but was unable to reproduce it to investigate further.

We are testing a change to Undo that should cure the issue of units not being moved back but getting their AP restored, but that would not give them 14/10 AP as far as I can see. I have not be able to set up a situatation in which the bug is reproducible. Looking at the code I have not been able to see how it is possible.

What we really need is for someone to figure out a reproducible situation that triggers the bug, or send me a saved game where the bug follows shortly afterwards - this would have to be an SP game and I would need to know the exact sequence of moves that triggers the bug.

Since I suspect this is most like to happen on the first turn, it might help if interested players could save their game before doing their first move, and then send us the save if they are able to trigger the bug - and tell us exactly the sequence of events to trigger it.

If we can get a reproducible example of the bug in action, we should be able to track down and fix the cause.
Richard Bodley Scott

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Kabill
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Re: I'm done with this game!

Post by Kabill »

MikeC_81 wrote:If you, Kabill, or anyone else thinks they know how to do this, you guys should immediately test it out and report the exact procedure on how to do this so the loophole can be closed ASAP by the developers.
Ugh, yes, it works. It's quite grim. This said, I do think it's a known issue - I have some recollection of a discussion on the forum a while back suggesting a kind of solution to it but I wasn't playing MP back then and didn't really give it much thought.
Kabill's Great Generals Mod for FoG2: http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=492&t=84915
bbogensc
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Re: I'm done with this game!

Post by bbogensc »

Ok I'm glad Kabill figured it out. The level of snarky is so high on the forum posts Mike I really am not willing to help further.
rbodleyscott
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Re: I'm done with this game!

Post by rbodleyscott »

Kabill wrote:
MikeC_81 wrote:If you, Kabill, or anyone else thinks they know how to do this, you guys should immediately test it out and report the exact procedure on how to do this so the loophole can be closed ASAP by the developers.
Ugh, yes, it works. It's quite grim. This said, I do think it's a known issue - I have some recollection of a discussion on the forum a while back suggesting a kind of solution to it but I wasn't playing MP back then and didn't really give it much thought.
Please PM me.
Richard Bodley Scott

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TheGrayMouser
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Re: I'm done with this game!

Post by TheGrayMouser »

Since playing FOG1 & 2 Since '09 I'm sure I have been cheated on in general, yet specifically, although I had the occasional eyebrow raise here and there, I can only say that I'm 90% positive in only just ONE game that there was some funny business. ( when in the first 2 round of combat with EQUAL and identical unit matchups you suffer double drop fragged status for like 9 plus units, you just know that you cant be that unlucky!!)

Anyway, one theme I note is that your opponents in those games where you suspect something is "funny" generally: Have minimal or no post counts in the forums. They are not in leagues nor to you see them posting challenges. They don't chat, and after that one game you have, your never hear from or play them again.

I suspect that the amoebas that enjoy cheating get some kind of rush from doing so, but cheating in a turn based historical game perhaps does not give them the same visceral satisfaction as in other game genres/venues.

Some one noted long lag times as suspicious when one replays the turn... Its likely not nefarious as it appears if you walk away from your MP game to use the bathroom, get a beer at the pub, mow the yard etc, your opponent sits thru that same amount of dead time when he get the turn. (So don't do that!!)

To the OP, if you are still playing, I assure you most players have felt similar thoughts here and there about these type of game ( simple to learn the basics but pretty deep decisions to be made, coupled with random) You get thru it by stepping back, taking a deep breath, a sip of booze, and remember that your attempting to have fun. If you didn't get mad at the game "random" when playing/spanking the AI, you shouldn't suddenly be when playing MP.
MikeC_81
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Re: I'm done with this game!

Post by MikeC_81 »

bbogensc wrote:Ok I'm glad Kabill figured it out. The level of snarky is so high on the forum posts Mike I really am not willing to help further.
Kabill informed me that it was save scumming via saving before each combat result and killing the game via task manager if it doesn't turn out your way. This is not new, is mentioned from time to time, and is something that Slitherine checks for already. Maybe the threshold is too high and some folks are doing it without being caught.

I suppose you could try to do so at key strategic times to avoid tripping the threshold but it would take a lot of consecutive reloads in order to generate truly outrageous outcomes and would be tedious to perform. Perhaps we could simply disable saving within a multiplayer game unless its to finish the turn.
Stratford Scramble Tournament

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=494&t=99766&p=861093#p861093

FoG 2 Post Game Analysis Series on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKmEROEwX2fgjoQLlQULhPg/
Kabill
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Re: I'm done with this game!

Post by Kabill »

Sorry for the false alarm, folks :oops:
Kabill's Great Generals Mod for FoG2: http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=492&t=84915
bbogensc
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Re: I'm done with this game!

Post by bbogensc »

Ah, so there is a name for it even. That makes sense. I thought it might be "scrumming" a whole turn offline. I've never tried but I don't see a difference between scrumming 1 combat versus a full turn, which could take hours and hours if it was toward a really unlikely result.

Very helpful to know slitherine is monitoring it. I do see indications players I thought were scrummers are getting warned or removed similar to what mauser said.
AlexDetrojan
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Re: I'm done with this game!

Post by AlexDetrojan »

'To the OP, if you are still playing, I assure you most players have felt similar thoughts here and there about these type of game ( simple to learn the basics but pretty deep decisions to be made, coupled with random) You get thru it by stepping back, taking a deep breath, a sip of booze, and remember that your attempting to have fun. If you didn't get mad at the game "random" when playing/spanking the AI, you shouldn't suddenly be when playing MP.'
Thanks GrayMouser, well said.
Alex
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