Raw unit usefulness?

[Paul59]

[That one phalanx definitely fought 4 rounds with a raw head-on and was victorious but was routed thereafter by a single frontal attack by a 2nd raw legion. I didn't see any other combat affecting the phalanx.

The ground is all open terrain with a bit of slope and forest on the fringes. Some of my cavalry and irregular had to fight uphill and got trashed accordingly. There is a large river to the south which hemmed in some units like my horse archers which dispersed but the Roman cavalry chasing them was literally shot to bits by Indian archers.

I have no idea about the stats of the phalanx vs hastatis because I wasn't planning to post about that, but I do know that the other 2 phalanxs were fighting at first 2 and then 3 hastati legions at the same time with some triarii following up cause they were very badly outnumbered. My 2 elephants also got surrounded, whipped and seen off mostly by hastati and triarii legions. One elephant has rallied to disordered but can barely move so it is unlikely to rejoin the battle. I had a few units rally which may temporarily save me from losing the battle. I had 3 irregular foot and they are currently being chopped down brutally by triarii, hastati and raw legions all working together. Not sure I can win with only ranged units left operational and some are getting beat up quite badly now, especially the hapless Indian archers that can't evade the swarms of legions coming at them thirsting for revenge after the Indians culled hundreds of legionnaires with heavy volleys of arrows, and so far one Indian unit has routed with another about to run (I started with 4 Indian).

OK thanks. That phalanx routing is really peculiar. I guess it must have been an unlikely series of cohesion tests all failing against all the odds.

Getting outnumbered seems to be endemic for pike-heavy armies. I have not played that many battles with both pikes and legionnaires but I had a bit similar issues in Philip II of Macedon campaign where the enemy would often have literally twice as wide front as I did. I won all the battles but every every time it came down to my pikes butchering their way through enemies on the open ground in the center while the rest of my units on the flanks were desperately delaying half of the enemy force from flanking the pikes.

If the phalanx had previously been in 4 turns of melee with the other Raw legion, they would have probably taken some significant losses by the time the second legion attacked them. When pike phalanxes take losses they start to lose their deep pike bonuses, which makes them a lot less formidable.

I still find it strange that they were broken so quickly though. Maybe they were near their autobreak threshold, were disrupted, or a general died somewhere nearby?

[GiveWarAchance]

I'm not 100% sure there was not another combat event involving that phalanx. I never thought of writing a report on this until after both that phalanx and Alexander's phalanx routed. That is why I don't have a picture from that time. I did see clearly though the phalanx get routed by a frontal attack by a raw legion which did occur right after the previous raw legion dispersed. That phalanx could not possibly be flanked or attacked otherwise because there were friendly units up against each side of it and no Roman stuff had broken through my front at that time.

[MVP7]

Close battle but still not too heavy final losses!

I guess I have been doing echelon attacks sort of semi-accidentally. I always try to deploy and/or move my army so that I have the main heavy infantry battle line in the open and both flanks either anchored by medium/light troops in hard terrain or controlled by cavalry in the open. This usually puts my battle line at least partially on one of the enemy flanks. That often results into a battlefield where the center is pretty even, one of my flanks is slowly crumbling under the slowly increasing number of enemies while I'm trying to get the other flank rolling before enemy manages to do the same on the other side. Haven't lost to that yet but couple times it has turned ugly with both flanks starting to roll around the same time with very even losses.

[rbodleyscott]

Close battle but still not too heavy final losses!

I guess I have been doing echelon attacks sort of semi-accidentally. I always try to deploy and/or move my army so that I have the main heavy infantry battle line in the open and both flanks either anchored by medium/light troops in hard terrain or controlled by cavalry in the open. This usually puts my battle line at least partially on one of the enemy flanks. That often results into a battlefield where the center is pretty even, one of my flanks is slowly crumbling under the slowly increasing number of enemies while I'm trying to get the other flank rolling before enemy manages to do the same on the other side. Haven't lost to that yet but couple times it has turned ugly with both flanks starting to roll around the same time with very even losses.

If you shift enough and attack where there isn't bad terrain, you won't have any weak flank troops to be beaten on your attacking wing, the flank troops will be the phalanx. (Not saying that you shouldn't have a unit or two of other troops on the flank of the phalanx to protect its flank, but the idea is to shift far enough sideways as you advance that those aren't facing any enemy except maybe cavalry that they can easily beat off).

[jomni]

My peasant mobs have successfully surrounded and routed some Immortals in the Battle of Plataea

[klayeckles]

My peasant mobs have successfully surrounded and routed some Immortals in the Battle of Plataea

frankly, i ALWAYS buy the maximum number of mob units i can...the best buy in the game hands down (flaxmen are close).

here's why: in battles with well match opponents it usually comes down to manouvre. and if i have mob units (usually hiding in the woods or built up) they hide until a critical juncture (often near game end)...and then march to a weak flank. or alternatively they peek out and show themselves...then my opponent has to use some high cost cav to guard that flank where the mob lurks in the woods. hey if nothing else disconcert your opponent by having a mob march back and forth in the woods just to mess with em...she won't know if its a flaxmen or a mob

Also, because they are basically already disordered they do well in most terrain.

if your mobs are "expendable" or die all the time, you need to rethink how you are using them.

Raw troops...enough said...but i agree they can be a great filler, especially for armies that need some numbers to cover flanks. i use em all the time...they are tougher than a veteran legion if attacking a flank

[GiveWarAchance]

In the Xenophon campaign, the raw units on both sides, like mobs and raw hoplites and what not, are quite useful. Some last for a very long time in combat (a few turns) even in simultaneously concurring combat against multiple enemies after being warmed up with arrows & pebbles.

[MVP7]

It's a cheap version of an already cheap unit, and (because of the way the points system works) is 2/3 of the price of the Average version. It wins by flanking the units of the opposing army, which has large units and no cavalry.

Now that the Legions Triumphant has been announced can you go into more detail about this particular matchup? Does it involve the new unit "Irregular Foot (trousered)" in any way ?

[rbodleyscott]

It's a cheap version of an already cheap unit, and (because of the way the points system works) is 2/3 of the price of the Average version. It wins by flanking the units of the opposing army, which has large units and no cavalry.

Now that the Legions Triumphant has been announced can you go into more detail about this particular matchup?

No

Does it involve the new unit "Irregular Foot (trousered)" in any way ?

No

However, I will say that you can see it in one of the screenshots that have been posted. (Although since I last posted it has been made Below Average instead of Raw, which makes it a bit more expensive in points)

[Blathergut]

There are some awfully scruffy looking Picts in one shot!!!

[MVP7]

Having now played Legions Triumphant, it has indeed made raw unit more tempting option. The upgrade system lets the units get rid of their bad perks and armor in the campaigns which fixed one of the big pitfalls of the raw units. The new army lists also seem to offer raw/below-average troops in more interesting manner than the older lists. The raw units are not just a choice between slightly more expensive but universally better version and the raw version of the same units but rather the raw units (like Limitanei and Levy Spearmen) are offering unique capabilities to the list while also being raw units.

The Limitanei unit type is listed as Heavy Foot, not Undrilled Heavy Foot like a lot of other raw/unmaneuverable units. How does being undrilled effect a unit?

I'm guessing that the mysterious army list with a lot of cheap units was Romano-British with the Sub-Roman infantry? Were they just using Limitanii before the change to experience level?

[Gwaylare]

The Limitanei unit type is listed as Heavy Foot, not Undrilled Heavy Foot like a lot of other raw/unmaneuverable units. How does being undrilled effect a unit?

So I think undrilled heavy foot do pursue after combat like warbands do for example.

[MVP7]

The Limitanei unit type is listed as Heavy Foot, not Undrilled Heavy Foot like a lot of other raw/unmaneuverable units. How does being undrilled effect a unit?

So I think undrilled heavy foot do pursue after combat like warbands do for example.

Thanks!

[rbodleyscott]

The Limitanei unit type is listed as Heavy Foot, not Undrilled Heavy Foot like a lot of other raw/unmaneuverable units. How does being undrilled effect a unit?

So I think undrilled heavy foot do pursue after combat like warbands do for example.

They don't, unless Raw or Warbands. Warbands always pursue and Raw infantry sometimes do.

Undrilled Heavy Foot are Unmanoeuvrable, but so are Raw troops, which is why Limitanei are unmanoeuvrable even though they are Heavy Foot. However, because they are not Undrilled, if they gain some experience in a campaign, they cease to be unmanoeuvrable.

[MVP7]

Undrilled Heavy Foot are Unmanoeuvrable, but so are Raw troops, which is why Limitanei are unmanoeuvrable even though they are Heavy Foot. However, because they are not Undrilled, if they gain some experience in a campaign, they cease to be unmanoeuvrable.

I didn't even realize the Limitanei could lose their unmanouverability. Does it happen when they get to below-average level? Also when exactly do the units upgrade to their improved version? When I was playing a campaign I'm pretty sure I had occasions where a unit was at the (displayed) level of the next upgrade at the start of the battle but was only upgraded in the next phase of the campaign.

[rbodleyscott]

Undrilled Heavy Foot are Unmanoeuvrable, but so are Raw troops, which is why Limitanei are unmanoeuvrable even though they are Heavy Foot. However, because they are not Undrilled, if they gain some experience in a campaign, they cease to be unmanoeuvrable.

I didn't even realize the Limitanei could lose their unmanouverability. Does it happen when they get to below-average level?

It happens as soon as their Experience goes above 50, which is the base level for Raw. So as soon as they have fought 1 battle in which they were blooded (suffered some casualties). They won't gain any experience if they don't suffer any casualties at all.

Also when exactly do the units upgrade to their improved version? When I was playing a campaign I'm pretty sure I had occasions where a unit was at the (displayed) level of the next upgrade at the start of the battle but was only upgraded in the next phase of the campaign.

Quality is the average of a unit's Experience and Elan ratings. The upgrade occurs when the unit's Experience and Elan ratings both reach the base level for the new unit type. If for example the new unit type is Superior, because the quality names are banded, and they may go up faster in Experience or Elan, a unit may be reported as Superior for 1 or 2 battles before it gets promoted to the new type.