Slitherine

I'm currently playing a custom game Greek vs Persians. The majority of my army is made up of armored veteran hoplites. So, my line of battle is set. The Persian skirmishers / horse archers approach and fire their missiles. Each shot is taking out 40-60 of my ARMORED veteran hoplites! Don't those guys raise their shields or form a shield wall or something? So, being the Greeks are heavy infantry, it's not like I can chase the Persians all over the field when they evade. Also, with the custom game setup, I only have a very limited choice of missile troops for the Greek side. So I am at a huge disadvantage when it comes to flank protection.

Seems the Persians missile troops should be toned down to account for the armored status of the hoplites.

In every game I have played the Persians get crushed by the Greeks/Spartans/Macedonians etc.
They only have 5 rounds of full strength missiles and as soon as you contact them they will crumble. Most, apart from the skirmishes don't even evade.

Depends on yesterday of course but in open battlefields the Greeks should win.

If you want an MP game with you as the Persians and me as Syracuse or something, let me know....

bssybeep wrote:Seems the Persians missile troops should be toned down to account for the armored status of the hoplites.

They are.

they only have armour covering their vital parts and lower legs and (except for the greaves) even that armour is not necessarily made of metal; Hey you got to give the bowmen some chance, they are so easy to beat in combat.

Mass bowfire is among the most annoying things to deal with but Bowman are exceedingly terrible in hand to hand and are usually not nimble enough to evade combat for long. Try screening your main hoplite line with skirmishing light troops. Even if they rout from missile casualties, they will not start a panic chain on your hoplite line.

MikeC_81 wrote:Mass bowfire is among the most annoying things to deal with but Bowman are exceedingly terrible in hand to hand and are usually not nimble enough to evade combat for long. Try screening your main hoplite line with skirmishing light troops. Even if they rout from missile casualties, they will not start a panic chain on your hoplite line.

Yup, I do this too. Send a few light troops out to draw their fire and use up their ammo. I had to use this tactic against the Indian army, they have bunches of archers.

devoncop wrote:In every game I have played the Persians get crushed by the Greeks/Spartans/Macedonians etc.
They only have 5 rounds of full strength missiles and as soon as you contact them they will crumble. Most, apart from the skirmishes don't even evade.

Depends on yesterday of course but in open battlefields the Greeks should win.

If you want an MP game with you as the Persians and me as Syracuse or something, let me know....

It is almost impossible to lose with Persians against Greeks when Hilly terrain is chosen. The Greeks have no chance in combat downhill in rough or difficult going and get shot to pieces if they don't close.

I hear your pain, but what I do fighting against the arrow strong Persians is to use whatever light troops I have, including light horse and rush them to the Persian line to be used as pin-cushions, soak up those arrows. Then as that's happening, with post-haste I advance my hoplites into the Persian line...carnage for the Persians ensue's.

Cunningcairn wrote:

devoncop wrote:In every game I have played the Persians get crushed by the Greeks/Spartans/Macedonians etc.
They only have 5 rounds of full strength missiles and as soon as you contact them they will crumble. Most, apart from the skirmishes don't even evade.

Depends on yesterday of course but in open battlefields the Greeks should win.

If you want an MP game with you as the Persians and me as Syracuse or something, let me know....

It is almost impossible to lose with Persians against Greeks when Hilly terrain is chosen. The Greeks have no chance in combat downhill in rough or difficult going and get shot to pieces if they don't close.

Even if that's true - and I think it's debatable, see suggestion above re masking hoplites with light troops - it only pertains to one terrain type. On flat terrain the Greeks can steamroll right over them. That feels about right to me, TBH.

Temple wrote:

MikeC_81 wrote:Mass bowfire is among the most annoying things to deal with but Bowman are exceedingly terrible in hand to hand and are usually not nimble enough to evade combat for long. Try screening your main hoplite line with skirmishing light troops. Even if they rout from missile casualties, they will not start a panic chain on your hoplite line.

Yup, I do this too. Send a few light troops out to draw their fire and use up their ammo. I had to use this tactic against the Indian army, they have bunches of archers.

Add my vote to this suggestion; send skirmishers to screen your hoplites. Also, consider your angle of approach and how long it will take to close, perhaps have a multiple ranks or approach in a way that he can't just sit on tough of a rough terrain hill and pepper you with arrows. Note which units are drilled and will be able to flank effectively.

I don't know if armour influences missile losses, but it should. It looks like rbodleyscott is confirming that armour makes a difference.

The Greek army lists need some work. As an example, there's no superior medium foot, the Skiritai, for the Spartans. Another example, the army lists feature poorly armed rabble. I don't recall 5th and 4th century Greek texts describing poorly armed rabble as part of the battle line. If you're poorly armed you're a skirmisher.

Cunningcairn wrote:
It is almost impossible to lose with Persians against Greeks when Hilly terrain is chosen. The Greeks have no chance in combat downhill in rough or difficult going and get shot to pieces if they don't close.

The math doesn't seem to work out though. I mean Immortals are freakin 75 points and Sparabara foot is like 45. 50% swordsmen, even if you are superior, isn't going to cut it against Offensive armored spears, uphill or otherwise. I mean if you are on top of a steep cliff sure but even mountain terrain type usually has a lot of flat ground or gentle hills.

Mass bows are usually better when they are cheap like the 36 point variant which you can spam more of since their value is almost all in breaking the enemy before they can come to grips.

rbodleyscott wrote:

bssybeep wrote:Seems the Persians missile troops should be toned down to account for the armored status of the hoplites.

They are.

Would be nice to see how many hits bounced from the armour.

MikeC_81 wrote:Mass bows are usually better when they are cheap like the 36 point variant which you can spam more of since their value is almost all in breaking the enemy before they can come to grips.

I'm starting to wonder if massed bows are under costed. With a horse army it is frustrating to endure shots leading up to the charge. A neutral impact, and then a withdrawal only to be shot at again. Mounted withdrawals against bows should be out of bow range.

I don't know if its a cost issue or not. It feels like it is simply one of several asymmetric matchups which I find to be unfun and lopsided in general. For example the a Horse archer army vs a foot heavy army isn't a lot of fun either for the foot guy.

MikeC_81 wrote:I don't know if its a cost issue or not. It feels like it is simply one of several asymmetric matchups which I find to be unfun and lopsided in general. For example the a Horse archer army vs a foot heavy army isn't a lot of fun either for the foot guy.

Historically it was even more painful for a foot heavy army to try & fight a horse archer army.
I think we need these kind of match-ups for realistic battles and they can be fun too.
The Battle of Arsuf is one of the best examples of how foot infantry with some melee cavalry could combat a horse archer army.
https://www.thoughtco.com/the-crusades- ... uf-2360710

Just frustrating seeing my Hoplites taking those high casualty hits from the missile troops. I think I just need to do a better job screening my line. I did end up winning the battle anyways

bssybeep wrote:I did end up winning the battle anyways

Well that's the point. The archers seem to be doing well until the hoplites get into close combat, then they lose.

Would you rather they put up no fight at all?