Best feature from the twitch stream?

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Kerensky
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Best feature from the twitch stream?

Post by Kerensky » Mon May 06, 2019 9:08 pm

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/421250565

For me, it has to be the simultaneous move. Finally we got to see simultaneous AI movement in a turn based strategy game. I just imagine how many TBS games I've played always getting bogged down by time requirements of sequential gameplay... (Why Only 4 Mechs!?) https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 1374007060

Being able to toggle it on and off freely will really help because there are definitely going to be times you want to inspect every little action going on.

This feature will combine amazingly with new AI allies, because that's always been a problem of too many AI allies as well. All you do is watch AI fight AI, and if they have dozens of units each, it's a reaaaally long watch. But not for PzC II :!:

kondi754
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Re: Best feature from the twitch stream?

Post by kondi754 » Mon May 06, 2019 9:31 pm

What I liked the most was the possibility of using different skills and features of different units, the number of different combinations and possibilities on the map
What makes me most happy is the gameplay and logical thinking are still the most important in this game :wink: good work

Akkula
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Re: Best feature from the twitch stream?

Post by Akkula » Tue May 07, 2019 1:51 am

I would say the encirclement without a doubt!.
Finally pockets will have a meaning in Panzer Corps, the new possibilities for strats and scenarios are limitless :D
Kudos to the devs :D
Eastern Front: Soviet Storm (v1.96): http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=50342
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WileyKojote
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Re: Best feature from the twitch stream?

Post by WileyKojote » Tue May 07, 2019 2:21 am

They made recon even more important with their passive buffs to other units. They are as important as ever and they should be.

jeffoot77
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Re: Best feature from the twitch stream?

Post by jeffoot77 » Tue May 07, 2019 9:05 am

+1 for the simultaneous move.*

it will become possible to play very big maps with hundreds of units !

13obo
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Re: Best feature from the twitch stream?

Post by 13obo » Tue May 07, 2019 9:48 am

Did they go over in more detail how the new "Undo" feature will work? It seemed to me it can be used outside it's intended purpose. Also, I guess if you can undo from an unfavourable combat result, it means "chance" results are gone (rugged defence, die rolls, etc.)?

I didn't watch the whole stream so may have missed the explanation on this.

kondi754
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Re: Best feature from the twitch stream?

Post by kondi754 » Tue May 07, 2019 9:58 am

13obo wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 9:48 am
Did they go over in more detail how the new "Undo" feature will work? It seemed to me it can be used outside it's intended purpose. Also, I guess if you can undo from an unfavourable combat result, it means "chance" results are gone (rugged defence, die rolls, etc.)?

I didn't watch the whole stream so may have missed the explanation on this.
I suppose "undo" will be unavailable/inactive in MP mode?
It should also be dependent on the chosen difficulty level IMO

PanzerCro
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Re: Best feature from the twitch stream?

Post by PanzerCro » Tue May 07, 2019 10:38 am

13obo wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 9:48 am
Did they go over in more detail how the new "Undo" feature will work? It seemed to me it can be used outside it's intended purpose. Also, I guess if you can undo from an unfavourable combat result, it means "chance" results are gone (rugged defence, die rolls, etc.)?

I didn't watch the whole stream so may have missed the explanation on this.
Didn't even think about this when watched stream. I really hope that undo move will somehow be adjusted/limited given the difficulty you are playing.

13obo
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Re: Best feature from the twitch stream?

Post by 13obo » Tue May 07, 2019 11:30 am

Normally such an undo function is implemented in games with no fog of war and randomness. In PzC, we have both of these, so unless there was some clarification that I missed, I think i won't be using the undo at all as it seems easy to cheat with. Again, correct me if some more details were given.

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Re: Best feature from the twitch stream?

Post by Rudankort » Tue May 07, 2019 12:44 pm

13obo wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 11:30 am
Normally such an undo function is implemented in games with no fog of war and randomness. In PzC, we have both of these, so unless there was some clarification that I missed, I think i won't be using the undo at all as it seems easy to cheat with. Again, correct me if some more details were given.
Well, you CAN turn off both fog of war and randomness in Panzer Corps 2. ;) Otherwise, it is pretty clear that Undo is a "legal cheat". But think of it this way. There is nothing which Undo can give you, which save/reload cannot give already. It's just easier, faster and more streamlined. There are many people who like to play with save/reload, so now they can do it without all the hassle involved. And if you want to play it fair, you will just disable Undo and won't use it. Of course, in any kind of a game which can be considered "competitive" (this includes both Multiplayer and Single player on "challenge" difficulties) Undo won't be available.

13obo
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Re: Best feature from the twitch stream?

Post by 13obo » Tue May 07, 2019 12:48 pm

Fair point. And you are right that the function was a legal cheat as even in PzC, undo was abusable, albeit less so than it would be now.

I guess I'll just get used to playing without it completely, which shouldn't be too hard as I played OOB a lot.

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Re: Best feature from the twitch stream?

Post by Rudankort » Tue May 07, 2019 1:05 pm

13obo wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 12:48 pm
I guess I'll just get used to playing without it completely, which shouldn't be too hard as I played OOB a lot.
If you only use Undo in case you misclick etc., then you can leave it on but limited to a certain number of uses per turn or per mission. Ultimately, in single player each player must decide for himself what level of undo is acceptable. This is the reason why "Ironman" mode exists as well - some people feel they need to restrict save/load for themselves, while for others it is totally fine. As the devs, we give you options, and you decide how to use them to maximize your enjoyment. ;)

Molve
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Re: Best feature from the twitch stream?

Post by Molve » Tue May 07, 2019 1:10 pm

Regarding Undo:

Will the game support the way Undo worked in Panzer Corps 1?

That is, the game DOES have undo. It just doesn't work if your move uncovered new information.

(Previous posts in this thread make it sound like we're getting an "always-on" undo (that lets you "cheat"). My point is that if the only way to turn this off is to turn off undo entirely then that means lost functionality. Hopefully I'm mistaken, though)

13obo
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Re: Best feature from the twitch stream?

Post by 13obo » Tue May 07, 2019 1:16 pm

Thank you, Rudankort.
Molve wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 1:10 pm
Regarding Undo:

Will the game support the way Undo worked in Panzer Corps 1?

That is, the game DOES have undo. It just doesn't work if your move uncovered new information.

(Previous posts in this thread make it sound like we're getting an "always-on" undo (that lets you "cheat"). My point is that if the only way to turn this off is to turn off undo entirely then that means lost functionality. Hopefully I'm mistaken, though)
Yes, Molve, it seems so far the plan is to have only 1 type of undo that will allow to go back on any action the player has made even over several consecutive moves. You will have to play either with that function or without it, which is a bit sad.

However, as Rudankort pointed out, even the PzC-type of Undo would let you "cheat". For example, suppose you're moving through a forest, in PzC, you could move a unit slowly 1 hex at a time and protect yourself from any ambush by infantry. The "cleanest" way to play would be without Undo all together though misclicks will require a quick load.

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Re: Best feature from the twitch stream?

Post by Rudankort » Tue May 07, 2019 1:25 pm

Technically, there is no problem to implement the old behavior as an option. We just need to add a check - what was the last command, and if it was movement, did it reveal any units. I just don't understand why this would be any improvement. As I was working on Panzer Corps and PGF before it, I have made several attempts to kill Undo as a legal cheat mechanics. There always was a big outcry from players, and the cited reason was always the same - we are all humans, we make mistakes and misclick, and it is not fun when a single misclick ruins your game. But if we accept this logic, then we also need to agree that:
- You can misclick on any action, not just on movement which does not reveal any units, so undo should cover more cases.
- But this does not happen so often, so Undo can be very limited in its number of uses. It's not a big deal if Undo is used a couple of times in the whole mission. It's much better than seemingly "innocent" undo move, but which can be abused again and again to avoid ambushes and collect information about where enemy is (or rather where he is not).

Back in PG days "Undo move" served a very distinctive purpose. You needed to go up to the enemy in order to see the prediction. So it made a lot of sense. With improved UI, this is not necessarily any more. And so it is much harder to see why move order is so special and deserves Undo, when all other actions do not.

13obo
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Re: Best feature from the twitch stream?

Post by 13obo » Tue May 07, 2019 1:50 pm

I agree with you completely now, actually. It seems the "undo" had a different purpose initially that has stuck due to its convenience for players.

A way the option could be tweaked a bit in PzC2 is to allow the player to pick which options can be reversed with the button. Some examples of when to allow undo:
- After moving, but nothing scouted.
- After moving.
- After attacking, but no rugged defence triggered.
- After attacking.
- After purchasing unit, but before deploying.
- After purchasing unit.

This is just a list from the top of my head, but admittedly that would complicate the programming of the function a lot. However, it would allow for the player to pick the experience he/she wants as is the case for difficulty options, for example.

Rood
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Re: Best feature from the twitch stream?

Post by Rood » Tue May 07, 2019 2:25 pm

Akkula wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 1:51 am
I would say the encirclement without a doubt!.
Finally pockets will have a meaning in Panzer Corps, the new possibilities for strats and scenarios are limitless :D
Kudos to the devs :D
agree :D Amazing feature, well not so because OoB has it for years but for PzC it's also a really nice and welcome addition.

proline
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Re: Best feature from the twitch stream?

Post by proline » Wed May 08, 2019 5:05 am

Rudankort wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 12:44 pm
;)
Can you clarify how the surround feature actually works? Does a unit have to be in every passable hex, or just have zone of control over every passable hex, i.e. every second hex? Does the 'surrounded' indicator ever end up revealing unseen units (i.e. perhaps you are surrounded but you wouldn't know you're surrounded because you can't see the units that are surrounding you)? Are units that are behind enemy lines surrounded? In that case they would be revealed to the opposing player even if the opposing players can't see them. Are units like parachutists pretty much always surrounded? Can you surround enemy units from far away, like say the other side of the map? Where exactly does a unit have to be able to get to to not be surrounded (it seems a port is one answer, what about the edge of the map? Any edge?)?

Kolaris
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Re: Best feature from the twitch stream?

Post by Kolaris » Thu May 09, 2019 4:52 am

Could you clarify what you mean by simultaneous movement? I caught most of the stream, but I don't recall any info on that.

Retributarr
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Re: Best feature from the twitch stream?

Post by Retributarr » Thu May 09, 2019 4:59 am

Kolaris wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 4:52 am
Could you clarify what you mean by simultaneous movement? I caught most of the stream, but I don't recall any info on that.
Simultaneous Movement:

All planned/designated movements and action-orders for both sides are all carried out in ONE-TURN (all at the same time, all actions and movement's take place at the same instant). Everything happens...'at once!'.

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