Elefant in the room - The Waffen SS

[KeldorKatarn]

Ok, I'm German but I'm not trying to play the special snowflake with sensibilities. I like having the historical flag and all that stuff and I don't get a heart attack any time I see a swastica... but there's still some stuff I'd like to suggest regarding these units.

First of all, do not make the SE/Bonus units represent the SS anymore. Yes yes I know they're SE and not SS but we all know that's what they were orginally, the icon graphics files even have the name still.

First of all there's a personal reason: I do not want that shit in my core. Period.

Second there's a better way: Make the units represent elite formations of the Wehmacht instead. Those guys didn't cause as much crap and were way more effective. I know some people deny it, but the SS units usually sucked. They're not elite or a neat bonus at all. Most wehrmacht officers were annoyed to be assigned an SS unit instead of a regular wehrmacht one. They're not a gift, they're a nuisance.

Third: realism. We play a Wehrmacht General. The SS was under command of Himmler, not the Army. I WANT the SS to appear in scenarios, because they existed historically, but I think they should be exclusively auxiliary units. The briefings could even play around with the fact that you're less than happy with them being assigned to you.

Forth: When I look at the Bonus units, they essentially can slowly be built up from a single bataillon, then regiment to later a small Panzer Grenadier Division or even Panzer Division, if you add the support stuff to them. There is actually a historical elite Wehrmacht unit that started small as a regiment, then became an infantry division and later a full Panzer DIvision: The Großdeutschland division. They're actually pretty ideal for this also since they fought in the important battles. They were assigned to Guderian for example in the battle of Sedan in 1940. So maybe make the German bonus units represent either them or simply regular elite army units in some way. I'd rather not have SS in my Wehrmacht core. The Wehrmacht had enough problems, I can do without the SS on top of that. That I have to live with them fighting beside me as auxiliaries that's fine. but as the commander of my core I want regular army only.

Regarding other nations' SE in general.. don't make them overpowered. Small bonuses or maybe even limit the SE units to prototypes or special unit types like commandos or something like that. Especially make them regular units with special traits instead of letting them represent political crap like some soviet Stalin guard or the Waffen SS or stuff like that which was only good in propaganda and nowhere else.

I'm sure this was discussed in detail already when PzC was developed but I just wanted to give my 2 cents regarding the future game. I like the bonus units, but please make them regular army and IF there is Waffen SS at all, make them show up in the historically correct places and times as auxialiary units.

It's kind of obvious we'll play most of the game as the Germans again, if only for the reason that they're the only nation that was in it from start to finish on the european theater so they automatically have the longest campaign always. So for that reason I'd like a change so I can be happy to receive bonus units instead of always feeling a bit meh about them. Especially since the EARLY Waffen SS units that were put up were not the "regular soldiers ending up in the wrong branch" like some people say about certain SS units. The early ones were all the core political units that were hardcore like the Leibstandarte. I would really like to avoid having them in my core please. I WANT them on the maps themselves because avoiding them completely would be nonsense historically. But I'd rather not be in command of them. The troops in my core are cool, I like to nurse every single one of them and make them grow and want to be proud of them. Not worry about whether the british unit tthat just surrendered to them got massacred afterwards...


Now that I'm writing this I have an idea... a patch added all those neat hero units to the Grand Campaign, like Rudel (yeah that guy was a hardcore Nazi too but I think he at least didn't commit a ton of warcrimes), Hartmann and other tank and fighter aces and snipers or whatever. Some people didn't like those because they kind of flooded the core forces, were overpowered or just toook up core slots and interfered with the core building mechanic.
Could these two maybe be combined? Maybe if I get a SE tank it's Otto Carius? Maybe if I get an SE fighter it's Hartmann? Would that work?

[Ravihon]

After reading in the forum for quite some time KeldorKatarn's idea made me register in order to be able to reply.

I like the idea to have the heroes and SE part combined. That takes away to make up new stats for SE units and I believe you could even develop that further. Let's the new special units you get have a name like Gespensterdivision or Panzerlehrdivision or as KeldorKatarn mentioned already the Grossdeutschland formations and they start with a perk like speed bonus for the Gespensterdivision (7th Panzerdivision) but have no additional heroes (in that they follow the normal approach).

I also second the notion of keeping the Waffen-SS to auxiliary status. Given their historical status, performance and "darker deeds" I believe it would be an elegant solution that is not blind to history.

[JimmyC]

...
Second there's a better way: Make the units represent elite formations of the Wehmacht instead. Those guys didn't cause as much crap and were way more effective. I know some people deny it, but the SS units usually sucked. They're not elite or a neat bonus at all. Most wehrmacht officers were annoyed to be assigned an SS unit instead of a regular wehrmacht one. They're not a gift, they're a nuisance.

They sucked did they? Maybe you should tell that to the 480 thousand Soviet casualties in the Battle of Narva.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Narva_(1944)

Whilst I disagree with your reasoning in that respect, I don’t really mind if it is changed or not. Using a non-controversial designation would work just as well.

[Ravihon]

...
Second there's a better way: Make the units represent elite formations of the Wehmacht instead. Those guys didn't cause as much crap and were way more effective. I know some people deny it, but the SS units usually sucked. They're not elite or a neat bonus at all. Most wehrmacht officers were annoyed to be assigned an SS unit instead of a regular wehrmacht one. They're not a gift, they're a nuisance.

They sucked did they? Maybe you should tell that to the 480 thousand Soviet casualties in the Battle of Narva.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Narva_(1944)

Whilst I disagree with your reasoning in that respect, I don’t really mind if it is changed or not. Using a non-controversial designation would work just as well.

Probably not the right choice of words nor the strongest argument of the ones offered, but I believe if you look at the 38 numbered division, only a fraction of them had an above average performance, taking into consideration they had first choice on draftees later on and better equipment. In addition they had been very often committed piecemeal until very late in the war, as armored backbone of a size wise larger group of Wehrmacht divisions (see your own example Narva).

This is why I believe they should be part of the auxiliary forces in specific scenarios given and taken as it was very often the case in reality, but not part of the core team. Core would be as suggest by me Wehrmacht formations that had distinguished themselves in the course of war.

[terminator]

Do these images shock anybody?

Unity of Command :

Capture d’écran (27).png (87.52 KiB) Viewed 7093 times

Gary Grigsby's War in the East :

Capture d’écran (28).png (210.82 KiB) Viewed 7093 times

The Operational Art of War III :

Capture d’écran (29).png (35.76 KiB) Viewed 7093 times

[terminator]

Maybe prefer you this version ?

56023_girls_und_panzer.jpg (68.08 KiB) Viewed 7092 times

[Ravihon]

At least I am for sure not shocked by the pictures you posted terminator , okay the last one maybe..., which I guess answers the question whether I prefer this one. At least my point was and is that using elite units should focus on Wehrmacht units, plus a sligthly different approach on what makes them special re the other units. If you prefer to keep Waffen SS in the mix it is a valid opinion, on my end it would help your point if you would use arguments other than: "everybody else does it", if that even was your point.

[terminator]

Gary Grigsby's War in the East , The Operational Art of War III are references.
The question is: do you want this game to be more historic one or not ?
If you want this game to be more historic then it would be necessary to add Waffen SS. I have difficulty in imagining myself the battle of kursk without waffen ss.
I am not fascinated and do not approve not at all acts practised by waffen ss, but it is the history.
I find that the solution of order of battle to make a faction for part is good.

[Ravihon]

I want it historic and as I said above and as you state as well the Waffen SS is part of that. That is why I would support using them as auxiliaries in the appropriate scenarios or maps. Take your example of Kursk, based on a quick check out of the 62 German Division only 4 belonged to the Waffen SS, although I agree with you the way the operation is remembered they have a larger share than the numbers suggest.

As I have not played Gary Grigsby's War in the East I find it hard to judge if the solution used there, is a solution for our discussion here as well.

[Kerensky]

Maybe prefer you this version ?

56023_girls_und_panzer.jpg

I would prefer it... if they didn't look like they were 12 years old.
Let them grow up about 12 more years, then I'm interested.

Back on topic, it's interesting how some games managed to sneak the SS into them, but Panzer Corps definitely couldn't.

[Rudankort]

In case anyone is curious, this is how SE units were shaped in Panzer Corps.

Art guys: Let's include SS units in the game. They look cool!
Rudankort: Good idea, yes. I can add them in some battles as auxiliaries.
Art guys: Meh, auxiliary units. That's not cool. Not even worth the effort to make those icons.
Rudankort: OK, let's make them more prominent then. A few of them will be given to the player and stay in the core.
Art guys: Now we are talking! (go away to make SS icons)

later...

Angry beta testers: What the heck? I was going to buy a fighter but the game gives me SS tank. I cannot disband the tank, because it looks so cool. But I still need a fighter.
Rudankort: Hmm... What if we make these units BONUS? They will not take up your core slots.
Angry beta testers: Now we are talking! (go away to continue playing)

later...

Slitherine: What the heck are SS units doing in the game? We will be banned in Germany and everywhere else!
Rudankort: But but, they look cool...
Slitherine: Remove them NOW.
Rudankort: Ok, what about we call them SE? Just one letter different and no one will guess they are SS.
Slitherine: Now we are talking! (go away and release the game)

[hs1611]

SS units are only a problem if you want them to be a problem.

SE units are slightly better than regular units, and look cooler too, so players that know little or nothing about the SS will just assume that's what they are and they can simply rename the units.

Knowledgeable players, the ones who know that the SS were supplied by the Heer (and therefore DID NOT have better equipment) and that they had real leadership problems (lack of properly trained officers and NCOs), will just NOT use SS units or RENAME regular units (hence my battlegroup suggestion. And if the player could assign different skins to different battlegroups this would work even better).

[KeldorKatarn]

First of all, anybody who said you'd get auto-banned for having SS units has absolutely no idea about German law. First of all I don't remember a single normal game that got 'banned'. Could you land on an index? Sure, but anything not considered ok for anyone not yet 18 can land there. All that means is the cover cannot be openly displayed in a shop or something and I think Amazon.de might not want to sell it at times but they've long moved away from being that extreme.
Nobody will BAN the game or sue you or whatever.

Yes Nazi symbology is forbidden in Germany, but only to prevent people from starting that crap all over again. For films, historical documentation, art, education it's clearly allowed. Do you think Indiana Jones movies are banned in Germany because they have Nazi flags in them? Of course not.

Yes Games that use the symbols always have a bit of a problem because someone in charge of checking what's appropriate for kids might have some hard line opinion, but those people are not the government. They are a voluntary self-control group just like with movies. There is no state organization banning games. That doesn't exist and nobody has ever gotten into legal trouble in germany for having Nazi symbology in a game unless that game is openly promoting NAZI ideology as awesome.

I seriously can't stand the line "you'll get banned in German!!" anymore. It's bullshit. Wargames are problematic in germany for other reasons. Anything that promotes war and violence too much will be auto-classified 18+ and that can cause problems with advertizing. THAT is a problem for a product obviously.

But you cannot get legally banned, i.e. prevented from selling your game. And in the days of steam ans self-publishing of digital copies I'm not even sure how relevant the advertising issue is anymore. And again... just having the symbols doesn't auto-cause that issue either. Legally it's perfectly fine since it's a game about WW2, therefore art about WW2 and as long as the game doesn't promote NAZI ideology or glorifies the holocaust or crap like that it's covered under the art and historical documentation exception just like movies and TV shows.

The law is meant to prevent me from marching down the street waving a NAZI flag and shouting Heil hitler. It's not meant to prevent historically correct usage of these symbols when portraying the era.

[KeldorKatarn]

Regarding the "does this image shock anybody?"

Who the hell said anything about being shocked? All I said was I don't want them in my core but they absolutely SHOULD be in the game as auxiliaries for historical correctness as long as the game doesn't promote them as the cool guys.

In fact the point in PzC that the SS were the BONUS ELITE was actually a bigger problem for selling that in Germany that having the SS at all. They were not elite in any way, nor shold you be happy ot have them assigned. They're war criminals. it's like the game assigns me Himmler as the guy that reads my briefings and claims I'm supposed to be happy about that because he's such a cool guy. Problem. Having them at all because it's historically accurate.. not a problem.

Honestly if the game puts them in as auxiliaries and the briefings makes it clear that the Wehrmacht doesn't actually like being assigned these idiots very much, then I really doubt this would be any problem. Presenting them as elite super heroes would be a problem, because that has no basis in any fact but Nazi propaganda and repeating THAT in Germany, yeah that will certainly not promote your game and make people want to print advertizement.

I never said I don't want them in the game, I said quite the opposite. I only said I neither want them in my core nor do I want them as my freebees because I am not happy about being assigned war criminals.

I further suggested having the Waffen SS in the historically correct places and times as auxiliaries, whcih makes more since anyway since the SS were SS and not wehrmacht, therefore shouldn't be under my permanent command. No SS was ever under command of a Wehrmacht officer for the duration. They were assigned ewhere needed by Himmler.

And finally I suggested combining the "hero units" of the grand campaign with the bonus ideas and instead gifting units like that. Units with historical hero names like Hartmann or Otto Carius or stuff like that. That way you also wouldn't have to beat around the bush and have SS-names icons and SE names.

As for the "they look cool"... how exactly? Their uniform camo pattern was introduced VERY late, for most of the war they looked almost exactly the same and they also had no special vehicle camo patterns. Most of the vehicle camo had only guidelines anyway and it was up to the individual crews to paint their tank, wehrmacht or SS.

[hs1611]

Here we go with the "historically correct" again.

If you want "historical correctness" than you should have a couple of SS units (CORE or AUX) with the same stats as Heer units, and the vast majority of SS units should be below average.
That's no fun gamewise.

Let me decide if I want SS units or not. Let my prejudices decide if they should be better or worse than Heer units. I'm paying for the game, so I should play it as I want.

When I said "they look cooler" I meant the SE units on the game, not the SS historically.

But I do think that if the player wants SS in the game they should look different than Regular units. Not from an historical perspective but because it makes sense IN THE GAME.

I would even like for all my Divisions (battlegroups) to have some individual distinguishing features.
Does that make sense historically? NO!!
Does it make sense gamewise/funwise? YES!!

At least it does to me...

[Ravihon]

What I believe is something that would be a nice addition to PzC 2 is the different skins to choose from, as stated by hs1611, plus if you can created with prestige an Elite (Veteran) unit with better stats, that way you leave it to the individual player if he did the reskin and Elite upgrade to represent a Heeres or SS unit.

[Buffalohump]

Both sides of this discussion have valid arguments. For myself I hope that not only do we continue to have SE units but that they are expanded to include other classes. The fact of the matter is that by their nature of use in the game they become your elite units do to their availability in every senario(not counting against your core). I typically build my army around that core of SE units that are there for every battle with my regular core being flexible to the demands of each senario( defensive, offensive, air defense, etc.). I generally do not concern myself with the morality of the game, we are playing as an aggressor nation that started a war of conquest and committed numerous atrocities. It is hard for me to make a moral argument for or against SS units with that understanding.

[Buffalohump]

For clarity, I understand that bad things happened on both sides of the conflict. I just have a hard problem making a moral argument in a war game when I am playing as the aggressor nation.

[KeldorKatarn]

Even playing as the agressor nation there's still a difference to me between playing army forces in which there absolutely were units that didn't commit warcrimes, even rejected crap like the commissar order or playing Waffen SS which basically did nothing BUT warcrimes and otherwise sucked at their job, or play even Concentration camp commander. There's still a certain progression there I'd say. I e.g. feel a lot better playing Africa Corps where I know nothing bad happened than playing eastern front. Yes the war was bad to begin with but there's a difference in seeing my troops as regular soldiers who didn't have a say in the matter or SS troops which early on mostly consisted of fanatical volunteers adn the worst scum Germany had to offer.

As for the "but I want to imagine the SS are cool and elite and blah". Eh? Sorry but what kind of argument is that. They were not elite, most of them were crap, they did NOT get supplied by the army, not even the army gets supplied by the Army. There's Waffenamt, part of the government and some parts of the wetire Wehrmacht HQ that's responsible for getting that stuff produced and equipping the forces. In no military of this world do the branches themselves have any say over the equipment they get.

if you say you want ti imagine the Waffen SS was elite while they simply weren't ... fine.. how about we make the glorious Volkssturm elite.. same thing. It's wrong and not backed by any facts. It's just some person glorifying the SS because they look cool in some movies or whatever makes people fascinated by them. I can understand their reputation of WW2 American veterans, because on the western front they were known for fighting like total fanatics. They were also known for basically being wet behind the ears 16-17 year olds who had been indoctrinated and were otherwise basically kids on a suicide run. So yes some units feared them since beside basically committing suicide they fanatically threw themselves at the enemy, of course causing some havoc in the process here and there. So some reputation I can understand. But that doesn't mean they were any good and I have no idea how glorifying them just because their uniform looks cool improves the "fun" of the game.
I actually question a bit when people say having SS forces is fun... I never understood the fascination with that. At best they were regular fighting men with a different unit insignia. That's it. I am much more fascinated with troops that stood out by not committing war crimes and still getting their job done in an amazing way on any side of the war. 101st airborne, Africa Corps and such. In general the navy and western front-Luftwaffe units which were the most apolitical and anti-nazi troops and still fought like absolute bosses.
Never unerstood how they are less fascinating than a bunch of indoctrinated idiots except for that "taboo" fascination that somehow accompanies the Nazi symbology apparently.
There were enough problems in the Army, even elite units like Großdeutschland did horrible things. Do I think the SS should be completely ignored? Of course not, they played an important role in some famous battles. But do I want them under my command as units that I should be happy about getting? No thank you

The army did crap yes, but I am in command of my units, so I know they won't do shit beause I order them not to and I don't deliver the Commissar oder or crap like that. WIth SS forces I know I wouldn't have any control over them. They respond to Himmler first and foremost, not to me. I don't want that crap in my core. On the map? Sure. They existed and the Wehrmacht commanders had to deal with them so I should have to deal with themt to. But I do not want them as part of the core forces that I am nurturing and am proud of.

[Buffalohump]

I am not sure I see the problem. There are no units in the game explicitly named as SS units. You are free to name or imagine the SE units as SS or any other unit at your own discretion. As stated earlier, I view the SE units as the elite core of my army because they are available for every battle to gain experience and heroes.