I am quite pesimistic about this game...

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mbpopolano24
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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by mbpopolano24 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:37 am

I am actually very optimistic and I trust the devs.

nexusno2000
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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by nexusno2000 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:30 pm

I have only 1 concern:

Will the AI be incredibly inept in every way, like it was in PzC (and Armageddon for that matter)?

mbpopolano24
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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by mbpopolano24 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:21 pm

The AI is a valid concern.

PantheraTigris
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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by PantheraTigris » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:14 pm

Why is a PZII even coming out when Blitzkrieg and Kriegsmarine are out for OOB? Seems like overkill to me.

DocDesastro
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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by DocDesastro » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:37 pm

I concur with users voicing scepticism about introducing 3D-graphics. For me this would not be a relevant point in buying the final product. AI is, gameplay is, immersion via historical correctness is.
Owning a Core 2 Duo PC I would rather curse every producer to the nethers of hell if he would 'optimize' the game so far that I am required to buy a new machine.

When I was young I played 'war in russia' on an Atari XL 800. Certainly even the 2D grafics were sub-par and the UI was far from being user-friendly. I played Blue Byte's Battle Island series and enjoyed it very much...it failed when it went 3D because devs were in need to make money but had no new ideas.
I played Civ series from part 1 starting skiping part 2 only. Hundreds of hours. I did not buy the newest part.
I played Jagged Alliance 2 and liked it a lot. Looking at JA: Flashback...well, I came, installed...and uninstalled after 10 minutes of play.
I liked Sim City, Transport Tycoon, Railroad Tycoon. I never touched its iterations again. Reason? Same content, but strain on resources. Nothing new in new clothes. And 'Multiplayer', 'Online' and '3D' never were a garant for success for the games I played. Rather the opposite. Once introduced, those games declined or discovered problems they did not have before. Or they had to leave out other things because of limited technical resources.
Paradox Interactive is showing how NOT to do it when looking at the HoI series. Part 1 was good. Part 2 was fabulous. Part 3 was meh in the beginning but acceptable with mods later. Part 4?? Never touched it as the devs steamrolled the community's opinion on the topic and produced a problematic incomplete product looking at the gazillions of DLCs you have to buy when being a HoI customer. Yeah, nice graphics there, but the game is abyssmal. And waiting for a DLC/patch or Expansion to fix those problems is not exactly my cup of tea. Not to mention the forum slugfest about 3d-sprites vs. Nato counters.
I played panzer general in the times of DOS and also played PzG 3D which...well...looked nice but was shallow and boring.
Developers should keep in mind that there might be the 30-50yr old customer out there looking for a game he/she can immerse in, think deeply, taking the time and rejoice in the act of creative, strategic thinking without being distracted by blinking lights, flashes, cinematics, popups, animations - like in a game of chess - only better or on other terrain. A strategic game IMO draws its potential from:
- AI
- clear, complete and understandable information for the player
- good user manual (not a wiki, not one made by forists who had it, but a well-written understandable one. I need 4 hours to read it? Boy, I want to play it 100+ hours so this is a small tradeoff compared to not understanding the game and quitting frustrated. I want do understand a game, not a game dumbed down to that degree that you won't need a manual but won't have depth and fun either)
- good UI
- balanced mechanisms and game features (gameplay)

nice to have:
- immersive graphics (but: no 3D or 360° cameraview needed). A WW2 game has every right to look old. We are talking about times of our (great-)grandfathers for heaven's sake.
- sprites/models for units - it would work with NATO counters as well
- nice music
- multiplayer via turn-baseed correspondence
- moddability

not important
- 3D graphics
- all time online and realtime

I just discovered Slitherine as a company that might deliver the goods I want (40K armageddon/Sanctus Reach/Panzer Corps) but with those kinds of announcements I will stay...well...not overly enthusiastic. I hope, I won't have a well-rendered, 3D Panzer Corpse. Looks nice but is still dead.

dave123
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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by dave123 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:00 pm

I remember when the original panzer general went 3d, it killed the game.

My favorite games are 2d, that's how I play Strategic command Europe, not with the "picture" graphics on. I think that the pretty graphics just muddy the thing up and make it harder to see.

I don't expect this thread, or any for that matter, to change your mind. The company is obviously looking to expand the game, and pretty graphics will most likely do that.

So.. How about the option to use the old style 2d graphics built into the game? Make everybody happy.

I would also echo others in saying that advance AI would be my number one request.

Oh, and my objections have nothing to do with computer resources. My computer plays the latest FPS games maxed out, and I love the beautiful graphics in games like COD and Farcry. But not for this type of game - it's a different mind set. And IMO, it's a different target audience.

Please don't spoil a good thing...

huckc
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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by huckc » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:25 pm

I generally agree that 2D is often better. But what else is there left to do in that realm? There's already a billion scenarios and dozens of campaigns, they've covered 2D Panzer Corps in spades.

Looking forward to what they come up with.

Wargamer74
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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Wargamer74 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:56 am

I'm sure Panzer Corps 2 will be a good game but I have a feeling it will end up being a similar situation to the way it was with Panzer General. Panzer General still has a huge cult following and many believe that it was the best game in the series. I think it's going to be the same with Panzer Corps, first there's a huge amount of content for the original game and I still haven't played it all, second because the game uses png for all of its artwork it makes modding very easy, third using a 3d game engine is going to mean more game bugs, technical issues, driver problems, and having to by a better graphics card. Plus as I get older I've come to prefer 2d over 3d graphics partially for the reasons I just listed but also because I like the board game feel from playing with 2d, Panzer Corps gives me that same feeling of playing with miniatures on a map and the game still has excellent artwork for the sprites, imo. The only advantage I see using a 3d game engine is the ability to utilize multiple CPU cores.

Molve
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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Molve » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:38 pm

Agreed.

I have played Civ 4 to death, but I always turn off everything related to 3D, but still have to suffer the performance hit (since the game is still 3D).

There is nothing about PC that needs 3D.

Molve
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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Molve » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:40 pm

huckc wrote:I generally agree that 2D is often better. But what else is there left to do in that realm? There's already a billion scenarios and dozens of campaigns, they've covered 2D Panzer Corps in spades.

Looking forward to what they come up with.
If all they can think of is moving from 2D to 3D they should not bother.

What we're interested in is fixing the most urgent flaws of PC in PC2. The graphical presentation is not one of those flaws.

fuselex
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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by fuselex » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:02 pm

So , looking through the forums maybe 80-85% of players do not want 3d?
This is a niche game and most of the players you will get are already here .
You may attract some newbies , but it is a game where you can`t expect a massive influx of players .
If the current players were interested in fancy graphics do u think they would be playing PC?.
And if the new players were into fancy graphics would they be playing PC?
Don`t stuff if

fuselex
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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by fuselex » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:06 pm

Have a look at -tigers on the hunt , nice 2d game :)

RandomAttack
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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by RandomAttack » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:36 pm

I was optimistic to begin with, especially with the original statement that implied most of the design decisions were done/already implemented. Kind of implied they were just building scenarios, working on play balance, etc. The fact they have shown absolutely nothing to date (not even a teaser) is worrisome. Personally, I think 3D is fine as long as the basic PC1 "spirit" is kept. Sure, there are some exhaustively discussed tweaks that are needed, but I do NOT want to see PC2 become a semi-OOB clone, or even go down the road of PG2. If I want OOB, I'll play OOB (which I don't particularly care for).

Finally, I disagree entirely with most of the "logistics/supply" discussions. I think PC1 has a perfectly fine (abstract) supply system. When you have to leave a unit (or units) idle for a turn to replenish gas or ammo, or take reinforcements, you are penalized with the single most important factor in the game: TIME. All scenarios are time (turn)-based, and having to decide when to "waste" a turn resupplying can be absolutely critical. And further, based on enemy-adjacent conditions, there are times you only get PARTIAL resupply or NONE at all. This is a simple, elegant system that IMO is just right for a "tactical/operational hybrid" game. I like it so much I don't think I've ever even experimented playing with it turned off.

Mark50
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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Mark50 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:47 am

Finally, I disagree entirely with most of the "logistics/supply" discussions. I think PC1 has a perfectly fine (abstract) supply system. When you have to leave a unit (or units) idle for a turn to replenish gas or ammo, or take reinforcements, you are penalized with the single most important factor in the game: TIME. All scenarios are time (turn)-based, and having to decide when to "waste" a turn resupplying can be absolutely critical. And further, based on enemy-adjacent conditions, there are times you only get PARTIAL resupply or NONE at all. This is a simple, elegant system that IMO is just right for a "tactical/operational hybrid" game. I like it so much I don't think I've ever even experimented playing with it turned off.
I agree with the supply system being kept largely as it was. OoB has made many things too complicated at the expense of the player having to invest significant time in mastering the system and at the same time imposed various restrictions in what looks like a misguided attempt to make things better (more "realistic", less likely to be exploited during gameplay). There`s an episode in Friends where Monica shouts while everyone is hurrying to leave the room: Rules are good! Rules help control the fun!
My point being that since there`s already OoB out there for everyone who wants it I would rather PzC 2 does not start with the "how can we make things more complex" philosophy. I do agree that some refinements should be implemented to the PzC 1 system, but they shouldn`t turn things on their head.

Btw, I`m also pessimistic about this game because I`m not sure what the focus is given the emphasis that nowadays these small developing groups try to put on graphics with their limited resources. I doubt they`ll be able to have both a very high level of graphics and lots of content.

For example, I`m willing to pay for a game with awesome graphics that set it aside from the rest even at the expense of a rather limited unit roster. For the time when it came out, the graphics of the very first Commandos game (that water!) made me want to play it even though I wasn`t keen on the game`s genre. So, if the game has well designed scenarios, plays well and looks fabulous (from terrain to units) I`m ok if it narrows its focus to certain factions, theaters, operations and units.

On the other hand, if the graphics are not revolutionary or some work of art I`m not going to buy the game if some countries are not in the game and others have a handful of units with borrowed graphics as was the case with PzC. 3d for graphics is an enabler, not an end in itself. When PG 3 came out its graphics were indeed better then in the original, but they were unremarkable for that time and the number of units and countries included was even smaller than for its predecessors. Not to mention that it even failed to have the Eastern Front included as part of the original campaign. I`ve looked at it recently. It did not age well either. Point being, if the game looks like others that are already out there and it doesn`t give you the opportunity to make all scenarios you`d like (because there are not enough countries, units and terrain types included) why spend money on such a thing? We have OoB to plainly show us what the modding community`s limitations are when it comes to making advanced graphics.

PS. @Rudankort, if this project is still in the cards, do drop us a line about how`s it going and what you`re trying to achieve. You should have a clearer image by now.
Last edited by Mark50 on Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jeff00t
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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by jeff00t » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:07 pm

"You may attract some newbies , but it is a game where you can`t expect a massive influx of players ."

--> wrong! many people would like to play this kind of game but they just can't! they don't even play 10 minutes! and why? just because of the ugly no immersive graphisms! As an example, there is me, i like Panzer corps or OOB because the gameplay is fun but aslo for his immersves graphism . I just can't play with natos graphisms, i just can't play with symbols i don't even understand them !it is too abstract . how could massive players could play "natos" games? it is impossible!

why don't you want that plenty of young and older players to play this kind of games ? it is possible but only with decent graphisms. is it so hard to understand this ?
my custom single player mini-campaign in order of battle : normandie-niemen: Image
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=374&t=79333&p=676302#p676302

DocDesastro
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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by DocDesastro » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:21 pm

Define Decent graphics. C&C Tiberium Sun was fun...Starcraft was fun - not for their overwhelming Graphics.
Hearts of Iron is fun and using NATO counters is nothing to be afraid of - today it is easier than ever to find their meanings in the net. I do not need sprites showing giant-men in provinces doing push-ups to immerse.
But when better Graphic means worse gameplay I draw the line. There is a point where I look at the graphic and say "Yes, indeed - this looks nice - but AI is still rubbish."
Work on the character of a game, not on their cosmetics.

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by RandomAttack » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:26 pm

I've heard this argument a lot, and in this day and age don't understand it. Graphics vs. AI/gameplay is not an either/or proposition. There is no excuse for crappy graphics. I like NATO counters for games like WITE, etc. Don't think they are really ideal for a game like PC2-- nice option I guess if they have the time/money, but certainly not a deal-breaker. Modders will have a NATO counter set out within a couple of weeks of release anyway. :D

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by DocDesastro » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:26 pm

I agree that a powerful graphic card will do the trick for most CPUs so good graphic can exist next to good AI. The problem is personel. Somebody has to design the sprites, code them, debug them, test them and so on. Upscaling graphics means dividing project resources or a higher budget needed beforehand. Not everyone is EA or SEGA and even there the number-crunchers dictate the way the money flows. So, basically: I would rather have a game that is challenging me. I want to use my mind. Eye-candy is nice...but well, that is optional, not a must. Essentials are AI, Gameplay and immersion. True, good graphics help at immersion, but I can live with less spent on that department and rather have a good moddability to let community add eyecandy or new game elements keeping the game alive and interesting.

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by RandomAttack » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:26 pm

I hear you, but we're not talking Skyrim, Total War, etc. Can't see it being a resource hog. Graphically, I would hope for something along the lines of the sneak-peeks of Unity of Command 2. Unfortunately there have been a few games that were "pretty" but sucked. By the same token, being "ugly" doesn't ensure great gameplay either. I demand BOTH! :D I'm way more concerned that the gameplay changes TOO much. I personally don't care for wargames that become low unit density puzzle-solving games.

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Redgar » Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:12 am

Good heavens. For all the developer time and effort spent on 3d, which we the people don't want, why can't the graphics team give the community what they really need: an integrated, moddable, stylish, low-system performance counter-clipper. :lol:

FWIW, I feel compelled to comment because I'm only here because of Panzer General in 3D. I can't get past the graphics of PG:2 or the original. Maybe I'm shallow, maybe my expectations are higher, maybe if I'm going to be staring at this screen for untold hours I just want something that doesn't look like shareware from my youth. :)

That said, I started with PGIII:SE (courtesy of a home for under-dogs, then a CD from some hot new online auction platform). Several years later, I found PG:3D Assault (in a discount CD rack in an office supply store, of all places) and was... moderately disappointed. I liked the full allied campaigns, but the graphics quality felt worse. North Africa was fine for the most part, but as soon as the maps transitioned to Northern Europe... I longed for the clean snow of Russian winters! The mods for PGIII:SE presenting full campaigns in other theatres were (imho) the best of both worlds.

In terms of what hooked me on the game: first, the fun of developing commanders, then figuring out the right mix and assignment of leaders and units, then eventually playing the 'real game' and scraping by with 2 star tank commanders leading my lone wheeled Ack-Ack while shepherding my precious 4-star bomber commander through Tunisia... . I can't comment on what 'scale' is best; personally, hoping for something bigger than squad-based, lower than 'hundreds of counters lost on the steppes'. I agree that PG:3 felt a little limited at times, but that probably had to do with the 'emptiness' / scale of the map.

Anyhow, that's enough of an egg-nog fueled rambling for now. Time to see if PzC:AC scratch the right itch for this Christmas season. Happy Holiday(s) of choice, and good gaming!

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