Commanded Shot - proposal

Moderators: terrys, hammy, Slitherine Core, FOGR Design

nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10287
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by nikgaukroger »

DavidT wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote:
DavidT wrote:I still want to see something done about CS with regimental guns. However, the basic proposal is fine.
Pretty much ruled out. IIRC they are only recorded for Lutzen and there the Swedish horse actually performed worse that at Breitenfeld - I'm not sure there is any case for doing anything. Fortunately it'd be very easy to add a RG as a house rule if you disagree.
Simple 1, History 0 :-(
We will develop a permanent house rule for games over here.
Make a case that their effect was greater than without and I'll have another think. My reading is that there was no noticeable/material difference and so any representation would actually distort the historical representation.

Also as mentioned if they were only at Lutzen then it would realistically be a Special Campaign item (and should have been in the lists as written).
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk
DavidT
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 270
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:10 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by DavidT »

The main sources I have are Guthrie’s Battles of the Thirty Years War and the Osprey Lutzen 1632 by Brzezinski.

Brzezinski states that, at the crossing of the Rippach on the day before Lutzen, “Shortly afterwards the Swedish right wing moved to cross at Poserna... Opposing the Swedes were Croats lining the hills on the far bank. Accompanying the Scandinavian horsemen were five 200-man bodies of ‘commanded musketeers’, each with two regimental guns. From these cannons Count Eberstein fired a few volleys at the Croats, who fell back from the heights...”.

Guthrie states that, at the start of the Swedish attached on the right, “The musket detachments saved the day. These, with their guns, gained local fire superiority [against the Imperialist musketeers lining the ditches], pushed back the defenders, then occupied the ditches themselves.”

Brzezinski states that, during the Swedish attack on the left “Gersdorf’s musketeer detachments and regimental guns made short work of the musketeers in the ditches.”

Pappenheim’s trumpeter stated that “The [Count’s] lifeguard company took great damage, and the Count himself was hit by a falconet round and three musket balls.”

There were many reasons why the Swedish mounted did not fair well at Lutzen, however, the above would seem to indicate that the regimental guns attached to the commanded shot did have an impact.

I have no objection to Regimental Guns being restricted to use for Lutzen only (or possibly ‘in 1632’ only rather than ‘from 1632’ as the lists currently state).
nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10287
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by nikgaukroger »

Yup, that's the sort of stuff I've used plus as much of Daniel Staberg's stuff on various forums as I could find - often very useful as he also discussed the Swedish-Polish conflicts which, of course, what the Swedes developed the commanded shot for thus presenting a wider picture. I will admit to placing little reliance on Guthrie's first volume as it appears that all too often he quite simply made things up (second volume appears somewhat better, but still problematic). Brzezinski is much better though - pity he didn't do a Breitenfeld as well as Lutzen :-(

As mentioned it all comes down to a matter of interpretation and I am happy that there is no need to explicitly represent the guns attached to the commanded shot at the time of Lutzen.

The one area I will happily admit that we will be ditching history for simplicity is the operation of the shot away from the horse on the left at Lutzen - but we feel that it is justified to avoid the issues that arose in the original rules around this. I am pondering if a list amendment can deal with this in some way.
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk
benjones1211
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Posts: 353
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:45 am

Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by benjones1211 »

I am a Swedish armoured DH Pistol, Pistol, with a CS marker refighting Lutzen.

I am 4 bases wide and have just been charged by two Imperial units, both of which have hit two bases
A Heavily Armoured Cuirassier Unit
An Armoured Cuirassier Unit
Impact was resolved, I used my extra dice against the Heavily Armoured Cuir, but a draw resulted, no causalities, no disruption.

Now comes Melee (for simplicity not using the proposed armour rules, their are lots of other scenarios which could mirror this, including impact ones)

Against the Heavily Armoured I am at a -, therefore the CS negates the -
Against the Armoured I am evens so I should get an extra dice.

Do I get both, do I choose which one I get, do I only get the dropped -?

Now this is a 2 and 2 base conflict
what if I had 3 bases fighting the HA Cuir, one as an overlap, and one base fighting the Arm Cuir, Which one do I get, do I have a choice?
And of course there is the other way round 3 bases fighting the Armoured Cuir.
kevinj
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:21 am
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by kevinj »

My view is that you don't get the extra dice if the shot contributes to a melee, so it would only negate the better armour of the cuirassiers.
benjones1211
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Posts: 353
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:45 am

Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by benjones1211 »

So now we look at it with the new armour rules.

I am a Superior Swedish armoured DH Pistol, Pistol, with a CS marker refighting Lutzen.

I am 4 bases wide and have just been charged by two Imperial units, both of which have hit two bases
A Heavily Armoured Cuirassier Unit
An Armoured Cuirassier Unit
Impact was resolved, I used my extra dice against the Heavily Armoured Cuir, but a draw resulted, no causalities, no disruption.

Now comes Melee
Against the Heavily Armoured I am down a reroll
Against the Armoured I am evens so I should get an extra dice.

So do I get the extra dice, can I reroll if I roll a one? Or does the CS get rid of the reroll drop and I don't get an extra dice?

Sorry just playing devils advocate :twisted: , also showing how the proposed armour rules do add an extra layer of difficulty.
kevinj
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:21 am
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by kevinj »

Or does the CS get rid of the reroll drop and I don't get an extra dice?
That would be my view. You only get the extra dice if the shot don't otherwise contribute at all.
nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10287
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by nikgaukroger »

I'm of the view that CS should apply to all bases that are in Melee - in some form.

Impact looks OK to me as we have proposed. Negate a - PoA or add an extra dice a la RG.

Melee is where it gets a bit messy. The whole extra dice in Melee was brought in for where there are no differences in combat PoAs, etc. as it was suggested that there ought to be something for having the CS in these cases. Perhaps that assumption needs to be looked at? Or is there something else that can be applied to all those bases in such cases instead of an extra dice?

I think this needs revisiting as a matter of urgency.
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk
benjones1211
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Posts: 353
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:45 am

Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by benjones1211 »

So you are a Carbine, Pistol Unit charged by 2 units

1) a carbine , Pistol unit
2) a Pistol, pistol

Against 1) you are at evens so get an extra dice
against 2) you are at minus, so lose the minus

So are you losing the minus and getting the extra dice, or just losing the minus as Kevin (and I ) said above. The first option seems too much especially if you are DH Carbine Pistol, and have been hit on 3 bases by the Pistol, Pistol and one by the carbine, Pistol, so for three bases you remove the - and get an extra dice for the fourth base.

So impact can be just as messy as melee. :twisted:
benjones1211
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Posts: 353
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:45 am

Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by benjones1211 »

So far we have looked at Mtd v Mtd, I suspect the same rules would apply Mtd v Infantry, and yes I know that means the Infantry must have charged the mtd, but how else to Pikes move them out of the way.

Finally Elephants, how do we want CS to work against them?? In the same way or have no effect
nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10287
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by nikgaukroger »

benjones1211 wrote: So impact can be just as messy as melee. :twisted:
Fair point.

Any ideas for simplification?

Have we tied ourselves up a bit with this and just have it as Protection with a shooting dice and leave it at that? Points cost charged accordingly. Impact between Swedes and Imperial cuirassiers may be the issue with this - and that drove the Impact phase extra dice.
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk
nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10287
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by nikgaukroger »

benjones1211 wrote:So far we have looked at Mtd v Mtd, I suspect the same rules would apply Mtd v Infantry, and yes I know that means the Infantry must have charged the mtd, but how else to Pikes move them out of the way.

Finally Elephants, how do we want CS to work against them?? In the same way or have no effect

Well if we consider CS to be a form of Protection in the way the rules currently have it then they don't apply against any of these as their protection only applies against other mounted - so not relevant against infantry and nellies :D
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk
timmy1
Lieutenant-General - Nashorn
Lieutenant-General - Nashorn
Posts: 3436
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:39 pm
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, England

Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by timmy1 »

I prefer protection for every base in the BG. I shooting dice ain't going to make that much different too often - it just encourages better mounted not to hang about too long. Provided the points are right it works for me.
DavidT
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 270
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:10 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by DavidT »

The extra dice for melee was introduced to make CS a viable option which were of some benefit and which gave average mounted with CS a chance against superior mounted without, following a number of playtests.
Playtests since the addition of the extra melee dice have made CS a viable choice to stiffen weaker mounted.

If the extra dice is removed then CS will become a waste of points.
viking123
Major - Jagdpanther
Major - Jagdpanther
Posts: 1037
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:44 pm
Location: Oxfordshire

Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by viking123 »

I had a practice game last night for our ECW competition using the proposed rule changes.
Commanded shot was to me an issue. He had 4 BG's of carbine armed average mounted with CS. Two of them stood in front of a P&S BG and fired 8 dice 6 needing 5's and 2 needing 4's. The P&S BG shooting back had 4 split between the two mounted BG's needing 5's. Luckily I managed to out shot him and broke one of the mounted but I would normally expect to be outshoot. When the CS as actual bases I would have expected to be firing 2 shots on 4's at one unit of CS so possible be able to take it out.

The other two BG's where standing in front of two units of Cavaliers (C). Next to the carbine armed BG with CS (A) were a two base Cuirassier HA BGs (B): -

BAA
BAA
CCC
C
(Sorry this does not come out right when I post it - there is nothing in front of B (HA Cuirassiers) the third C is in an overlap position to the carbine armed BG)
The Carbine armed BG has 4 dice needing 5's. The Cavaliers do not want to charge as at impact they will be at evens with an HA overlap so they stand and take the hits.

When they finally charge after losing a base they lose impact as the carbine count as protected. In melee they are evens so get an extra dice plus the overlap from the HA Cuirassiers.

I just feel that CS giving protect across the whole BG's gives mounted BG's that would normally be charged all the time does not feel right.
nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10287
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by nikgaukroger »

viking123 wrote: When they finally charge after losing a base they lose impact as the carbine count as protected. In melee they are evens so get an extra dice plus the overlap from the HA Cuirassiers.
Not sure you can say they lost the Impact because of the CS. They would just makes the Impact evens - more of a lottery for sure.


I just feel that CS giving protect across the whole BG's gives mounted BG's that would normally be charged all the time does not feel right.
Makes me wonder what you think of the rules as published as that is pretty much what they get now with the addition of an extended frontage where the CS tend to fight at a + PoA.
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk
nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10287
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by nikgaukroger »

DavidT wrote: If the extra dice is removed then CS will become a waste of points.
Well that would surely depend on what points they end up being charged at - which is not finalised as yet.
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk
nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10287
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by nikgaukroger »

A question that may (or may not) help.

Other than the commanded shot used by Gustavus, are there any cases where the historical record shows them having much effect?

Asking as a quick look at some cases suggests that Gustav used fairly large bodies of musketeers - a few hundred - whereas later examples (thinking mainly of the ECW ones here) are much smaller 50 man bodies. The former were clearly useful, less sure about the latter - at least to a level that needs representation by affecting a PoA, etc. in FoG:R.
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk
viking123
Major - Jagdpanther
Major - Jagdpanther
Posts: 1037
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:44 pm
Location: Oxfordshire

Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by viking123 »

Under the current rules CS only gives protection to the file it is next to. Thus if my cavaliers charge it is 2 dice at 4's and two at 5's for the carbine armed BG with CS. It gets an overlap from the CS in melee which I might be prepared to match if I have an overlap on the other side of carbine armed BG.

My other concern was the fact that against infantry the carbine armed BG with CS gets 4 dice - one on a 4 and 3 on a 5. Yes under the current roles at short range they will get 5 - 2 on a 4 and 3 on a 5. However, under the current rules my infantry might be able to fire at the CS with one dice at long range and two at short on 4's so can kill the CS. Under the proposals I can not kill the CS so all my dice are at the mounted BG on 5's.

When you are looking at the issue of how commanded shot worked in real battles you also need to clarify the number of CS markers a players is allowed under the army. Currently an ECW Parliamentarian army is allowed 0 - 4. As under the rules a CS BG is made up of 2 Medium foot that means an ECW Parliamentarian gets two CS BG's. This could be interpreted to mean that an ECW Parliamentarian can have 0 - 4 CS markers rather than just 2.
DavidT
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 270
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:10 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Commanded Shot - proposal

Post by DavidT »

nikgaukroger wrote:A question that may (or may not) help.

Other than the commanded shot used by Gustavus, are there any cases where the historical record shows them having much effect?

Asking as a quick look at some cases suggests that Gustav used fairly large bodies of musketeers - a few hundred - whereas later examples (thinking mainly of the ECW ones here) are much smaller 50 man bodies. The former were clearly useful, less sure about the latter - at least to a level that needs representation by affecting a PoA, etc. in FoG:R.
At Naseby, the fire from the CS with the Royalist horse on their right forced Okey's dragoons to retire away from the fire to a point where they were protected from the fire by the terrain. Possibly not the type of effect you were thinking of, but a case of CS having an impact nonetheless.
Post Reply

Return to “FOGR Update”