Commanded Shot - proposal

[nikgaukroger]

Points cost is per BG (this is very much a first stab and used Regimental guns as a bench mark). If Poor 7 points for Horse, 11 for Determined Horse or Cavaliers. If Average 9 points for Horse, 13 for Determined Horse or Cavaliers. If Superior 12 points for Horse, 18 points for Determined Horse or Cavaliers. If Elite 14 points for Horse, 21 points for Determined Horse or Cavaliers.

Could we have some more feedback on the cost of commanded shot under this proposal please.

[timmy1]

I would recommend +1 to the points cost lsited above for Elites. CS are supposed to be used to make up for the deficiencies in one's own Mounted. I ain't convinced that Elites really need them so it should be a difficult decision and the extra cost makes it that.

[nikgaukroger]

Thinking about how the marker approach would work in respect to army lists which are, of course, in terms of BGs.

I think I'd suggest we go with the number of bases that the army lists currently have (with the exception of the Huguenots). Has the advantage that people may well have that many bases anyway so already have the right number of markers.

So:

French Wars of Religion - Huguenot 0-4
Early Gustavan Swedish 0-6
Early TYW Swedish 2-8
Later TYW German 0-6
Later TYW Swedish and Weimarian 0-8
TYW French 0-6
Early ECW Royalist 0-4
ECW Parliamentarian 0-4
Later ECW Royalist 0-4


Might be worth thinking about whether we should take the minima out of the Early TYW Swedish in this suggestion, because with the commanded shot no longer being BGs it may be seen as an imposition and better left to a choice.

What do people think?

[spedders]

I agree I would remove the minimum from the early TYW Swede

[timmy1]

As someone who uses the army nice to have the minimum removed.

[Jhykronos]

Thinking about how the marker approach would work in respect to army lists which are, of course, in terms of BGs.

I think I'd suggest we go with the number of bases that the army lists currently have (with the exception of the Huguenots). Has the advantage that people may well have that many bases anyway so already have the right number of markers.

Since they are associated with units now, the limits need to correspond to the number of units they can be attached to. And be exclusive to the ones we don't want them attached to (like, say, the carbine cavalry that everyone is putting them with in the current system).

So, in your example:

Early Gustavan Swedish 0-6

This could be a line in that list that says "Upgrade: Add commanded shot to Latta Ryttare or hakkapeliitta units - 0-6." Assuming they get that many units. If they get less, you could just say "any".

Might be worth thinking about whether we should take the minima out of the Early TYW Swedish in this suggestion, because with the commanded shot no longer being BGs it may be seen as an imposition and better left to a choice.

Probably still need a provision for 0-6 or 0-12 stands of unattached shot that are not commanded out to the cavalry.

[DavidT]

And be exclusive to the ones we don't want them attached to (like, say, the carbine cavalry that everyone is putting them with in the current system).

According to Guthrie and others, Baudissin's Regiment was deployed in the first line of the Swedish horse on the left wing at Breitenfeld, interspersed with detached shot from Hand's infantry regiment. According to Brzezinski, Baudissin's was one of three regiments of German arquebusiers which joined Gustav's Swedes after leaving Christian IV's Danish army. Therefore, in the Swedish army at least, commanded shot should be permitted to be attached to the mercenary karbinryttare.

[nikgaukroger]

Therefore, in the Swedish army at least, commanded shot should be permitted to be attached to the mercenary karbinryttare.

Assuming, that is, that Gustav had not got them to adopt his cavalry tactics in the way he got his German infantry to adopt his infantry tactics.

[Jhykronos]

Assuming, that is, that Gustav had not got them to adopt his cavalry tactics in the way he got his German infantry to adopt his infantry tactics.

The OOB I've seen just lists them as "Horse"... pretty much all the cavalry in the Swedish army are described as either "Cuirassiers" or "Horse". The same OOB lists the allied Saxon cavalry as "Kuirass" or "Arkebus".

[DavidT]

According to Brzezinski, most of the mercenary horsemen, including arquebusiers, were now termed simply as horsemen and that, based on prints from the time, a fair proportion were still arquebusiers and fully armoured cuirassiers.

[Jhykronos]

According to Brzezinski, most of the mercenary horsemen, including arquebusiers, were now termed simply as horsemen and that, based on prints from the time, a fair proportion were still arquebusiers and fully armoured cuirassiers.

Hey, you may very well be correct. Of course, if an "arkebusier" is tactically behaving like a demi-cuirassier, FOG-R would still classify him as Pistol/Pistol.

[jonphilp]

Just to check, if e are not going to have a commanded shot unit on the table but as a marker, i assume it is no longer classed as a shot unit and is, therefore, unable to crew captured artillery as I believe happened at Lutzen and in a couple of our games.

[kevinj]

One of the other things changing in this revision is the capture of artillery, in future the norm will be that captured artillery is removed in the JAP.

[jonphilp]

Thanks for the clarification. I doubt I will have commanded shot from now on the battlefield.

[madaxeman]

reposting my comments from another thread for clarity;

Thinking through the way CS played out in this playtest, it does suggest to me that the "new" CS paradigm means they should be in the range of "+1-2 points per mounted base in the unit".

You're getting an extra dice at impact, a POA some of the time, and some half-hearted shooting, netted off against slower movement and the fact this "half POA" can/will be "lost" if the unit using it wins and follows up.

You no longer get extra units, the extra width of formation, the fairly decent shooting.

On balance what we have now does sort of feel like a 1-point/base-type benefit at most.

Thinking more about this, the "extra frontage at the same factors for less points per file that the Horse they are accompanying" is probably one of the biggest reductions in effectiveness in the proposed Commanded Shot rules (in terms of their interaction with other Horse). That again suggest a fairly low cost per unit and/or base is appropriate, as you'll now need 50% more Horse units to cover the same frontage

[nikgaukroger]

Cheers - useful grist to the mill

[kevinj]

We've added a revised points suggestion. It originally appeared in the Play Test thread but really should be here:

Horse/DH
Poor 4/6
Average 6/9
Superior 9/12
Elite 12/16

Ben suggested reducing Poor DH to 5 and Average to 8 so the premium for DH is nearer 1/3 extra for all. That doesn't seem unreasonable.

[DavidT]

Horse/DH
Poor 4/6
Average 6/9
Superior 9/12
Elite 12/16

Ben suggested reducing Poor DH to 5 and Average to 8 so the premium for DH is nearer 1/3 extra for all. That doesn't seem unreasonable.

Following my recent playtest, I would propose the following:

Hse/DH or Cav

Poor 4/4
Average 8/8
Superior 12/12
Elite 16/16

The extra dice in impact and melee is worth more if you have fewer dice. e.g. 5 dice v 4 gives better odds than 7 v 6 or 9 v 8.
Negating a -ve in impact and melee is worth more if you have more dice.

I believe that these sort of balance out. So should the points cost not be even between Hse (which generally roll a maximum of 4 dice) and DH which generally roll between 4 and 8?

[nikgaukroger]

Thanks.

What do others feel?

[benjones1211]

I would price the same as regimental guns at 7/9/12/14
Reasoning they are doing the same sort of job and compare favorably with them

Shooting Reg Gun 4+ CS 4+ Inf 5+ Mtd
Impact Reg Gun +1 Dice, CS +1 Dice or negate -
Melee Reg Gun Nothing CS +1 Dice or negate -
Move Reg Gun As BG CS Slows BG
Lost Reg Gun Rout CS Rout, Charge, Move Fast

If anything the extra dice at melee, outweighs the fact its easier to lose, and the marginally poorer shooting, means it should be 1pt more but its marginal. I also would not differentiate between Horse and DH, after all CS with RG paid the same as Pike and Shot with RG.