Sengoku Jidai tournament 2018 - Round Two

SnuggleBunnies
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Re: Sengoku Jidai tournament 2018 - Round Two

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:58 pm

SnuggleBunnies (Ikki) defeats w_michael (Uesugi) 4-51

GG

KiwiWarlord
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Re: Sengoku Jidai tournament 2018 - Round Two

Post by KiwiWarlord » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:27 am

Well done SnuggleBunnies.

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Re: Sengoku Jidai tournament 2018 - Round Two

Post by sillygoy » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:07 am

Thank you, Lord Kiwi. You honor me. And congrats on your victory, Snuggles!

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Re: Sengoku Jidai tournament 2018 - Round Two

Post by ahuyton » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:02 am

sillygoy wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:50 pm
sillygoy's 19,894 Ikko Ikki (5%) defeat ahuyton's 11,316 Uesugi (44%)

This round, ahuyton spent lots of points on cavalry and yumi samurai. This panicked me early on, making me dissolve my neat checkerboard for something that would better withstand getting pelted at range. Perhaps it was this initial disorganization that encouraged ahuyton to move forward aggressively and engage me in rough terrain. GG mate.
I have to admit that at a certain point I almost gave up, after the Ikko-ikki got three rallies in one turn and my Uesugi seemed to evaporate at every shooting and combat. But Sillygoy did use the terrain cleverly and outplayed me in that respect so well played.

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Re: Sengoku Jidai tournament 2018 - Round Two

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:29 am

SnugglBunny (Ikki) defeats GDod (Uesugi) 30-55

GG

w_michael
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Re: Sengoku Jidai tournament 2018 - Round Two

Post by w_michael » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:28 pm

TGM pointed out the high number of post-impact fall backs in our game, and there have been. I don't remember seeing this in P&S. Does it have something to do with so many Superior troops?
William Michael, Pike & Shot Campaigns & Field of Glory II enthusiast

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Re: Sengoku Jidai tournament 2018 - Round Two

Post by ahuyton » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:13 pm

w_michael wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:28 pm
TGM pointed out the high number of post-impact fall backs in our game, and there have been. I don't remember seeing this in P&S. Does it have something to do with so many Superior troops?
This has surprised me also, very frustrating it is. As is the situation when an enemy loses a melee and breaks off but leaves your unit paralysed (usually to get shot to pieces and/or hit in the flank). Mind you, this happens in P&S also. I guess that you have to try and factor these into the planning.

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Re: Sengoku Jidai tournament 2018 - Round Two

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:01 pm

There are many reasons this behavior is prevalent in this matchup. I'll look at the comparison to Pike and Shot in this post, then tackle other armies in SotS in the next.

So, in both games, infantry cannot fall back from Impact Foot, but in Pike and Shot, they also cannot fall back from Keil and Salvo types.

So in the 1500-1600 period, the heavy infantry component of most PnS armies consists of keils, which infantry cannot fall back from (think Landsknechts, Swiss Pikes, Early Tercios, etc). Most of the lists using massed gun type units instead (Turks, Poles, Russians) rely on their cavalry as the assault arm, and of course infantry cannot fall back from cavalry. The gunners tend to hang back and switch firing targets rather than charging in, unless the enemy is already disrupted, in which case they tend to break rather quickly. There are, however, some more idiosyncratic (read: crap) armies that utilize large numbers of troops armed with Swords or Heavy Weapon in this period (Select Levy, Bow and Bill etc.). Enemies can fall back from melee with these foes, and their limited firepower (Bows and Crossbows) ensures that even when the enemy falls back, they probably can't take advantage of it by disrupting with fire.

In the 1600-1700 period, most armies rely on Pike and Shot units. These tend to disrupt the enemy with fire before charging in. The disrupted unit, with lower cohesion test chance from heavy casualties, often breaks before falling back. Even if it fragments and then falls back, the subsequent point blank volley of musketry is often enough to make it flee. There are a few exceptions to this army type, though:

1)the Hadjuk/Jannisary/Streltsy type. However, these units again rely on fire to break their enemies, with cavalry usually providing the shock component. An enemy that falls back from these fighters in melee will also take a horrific amount of fire.
2)the Impact/Salvo type. These units have limited close range firepower, so often charge into contact; but of course, enemies cannot fall back from either of these troop types.

So if you play, say, a 1494 English vs 1494 Danes match, you might see a lot of Fall Backs, but otherwise the behavior is less common. Next post, other armies in SotS
Last edited by SnuggleBunnies on Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Sengoku Jidai tournament 2018 - Round Two

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:11 pm

Part 2: Armies in SotS and Fall Backs

We'll look at other armies before taking a close look at the Ikko Ikki vs early Uesugi matchup.

1) Non-tribal Chinese armies. These heavily rely on missile power, having very few dedicated melee infantry. The majority of their foot has 15% Light Spear for Impact, which is a purely defensive ability. So Chinese infantry tends to rely on disrupting and weakening with fire before closing, so that when they do charge, the enemy is more likely to break due to disruption/lower cohesion rolls due to casualties. Even in the early period, when there are more archers than matchlockmen on the field, the lack of armor worn by these troops means they will still suffer from close range fire.

2) Tribal Chinese armies. These rely on a swarm of skirmishers for missile support, and their three infantry types (Light Spear, Light Spear/Swordsmen, Impact Foot/Swordsmen) to close into contact. The Light Spear types are trash that the enemy can fall back from and then pour fire into. The LS/S types can often inflict a disrupt on untrained melee fighters, giving them a good chance to break them before fall back. The Impact Foot can often shatter a unit into Fragged state immediately, and of course the enemy cannot Fall Back from them

3) Wokou. All Impact Foot.

4) Koreans. The early armies will see a lot of Fall Backs, due to weak missile power (Bow). Some later armies have fearsome Impact Foot monks, and, more importantly, the infantry largely switches to matchlocks. These ensure that even if the enemy falls back, they'll take terrible punishment.

5) Tibetans. The enemy can fall back from any Tibetan infantry, as these are either Light Spear, Archers, or Matchlockmen. The later list heavily relies on matchlockmen, though, and in any case Tibetan infantry is usually used as a defensive base for the charge of their heavy armored cavalry.

Finally, Sengoku armies. The current type sees more Fall Backs than the later lists. The later Sengoku armies have somewhat fewer Superior troops, but, more importantly, have full size units of Teppo instead of the ineffectual lights we have with the current matchup. Not only can these units Fall Back from a melee and then pour a volley into the enemy before they have time to reform, but they can frequently disrupt or cause heavy casualties before contact, which lead to more cohesion fails. The combination of large numbers of Superior units confronting each other with a smaller number of guns on the field leads to the high ratio of Fall Backs. I do think the Ikki have the advantage here, as the full size units of Teppo are devastating to Superior Armored Samurai infantry, and can fall back and pour more fire in. A later Uesugi list would have a better chance, due to also being able to devastate infantry with Teppo fire.
Last edited by SnuggleBunnies on Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

w_michael
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Re: Sengoku Jidai tournament 2018 - Round Two

Post by w_michael » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:23 am

SnuggleBunnies wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:01 pm
So, in both games, infantry cannot fall back from:

Determined Foot
Impact Foot

but in Pike and Shot, they also cannot fall back from Keil and Salvo types.
Foot cannot fall back from shock troop foot. Impact foot is a shock troop, as are keils and salvos, but determined foot just has more AP AFAIK.

That was a very helpful analysis though.
William Michael, Pike & Shot Campaigns & Field of Glory II enthusiast

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Re: Sengoku Jidai tournament 2018 - Round Two

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:37 am

Apologies, and thanks, post edited. I don't know where I got the idea that Determined were one of the sticky types.

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Re: Sengoku Jidai tournament 2018 - Round Two

Post by ahuyton » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:50 pm

Thanks Snuggles, that is an excellent analysis. Understanding the rationale as well as the gameplay is very helpful and makes the game (even) more interesting.

In our game, you also tried to rationalise the consequence of fallback - the fact that the winning unit cannot charge the next turn - as reorganising after combat before setting off again and I thought that made a lot of sense as well. Still, it remains galling when a winning unit gets stuck and then outflanked, but I do at least see the logic and if I were watching it happen to someone I could sagely nod and say "seems reasonable" ...

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Re: Sengoku Jidai tournament 2018 - Round Two

Post by w_michael » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:08 pm

SnuggleBunnies wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:37 am
Apologies, and thanks, post edited. I don't know where I got the idea that Determined were one of the sticky types.
Swiss keils are the only determined foot that I can think of off hand, which are shock troops because they are a keil. I suppose that with enough casualties they lose keil/shock status, but are still determined foot.
William Michael, Pike & Shot Campaigns & Field of Glory II enthusiast

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Re: Sengoku Jidai tournament 2018 - Round Two

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:18 pm

SnuggleBunnies (Ikki) defeats ahuyton (Uesugi) 15-43
SnuggleBunnies (Ikki) defeats LFDLM (Uesugi) 26-55

Good Games.

Yari Hatamoto are also determined foot. So they are the only Heavy Foot in SotS. This comes with upsides and downsides.

Upside, they have slightly better cohesion rolls in open terrain, on top of their Elite status. Also a theoretical upside is that cavalry don't get the +100POA vs Warriors or Mediums vs them, but, as they have Spears, I don't think that matters.

Downside, they are the only infantry unit in SotS disordered by rough ground/build up area.

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Re: Sengoku Jidai tournament 2018 - Round Two

Post by KiwiWarlord » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:08 am

SnuggleBunnies wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:18 pm
SnuggleBunnies (Ikki) defeats ahuyton (Uesugi) 15-43
SnuggleBunnies (Ikki) defeats LFDLM (Uesugi) 26-55
Another clean sweep :D :D
Bloody Brilliant, well done SnuggleBunnies. :D :D
I am struggling somewhat with these Ikko Ikki and I have no idea how TGM is going, but as long as we can get a couple wins that should suffice.
Yes that post combat fall-back certainly saves the Peasants on many occasions. I notice in FoG2 that there seems a greater chance of a follow-up when units fall back.

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Re: Sengoku Jidai tournament 2018 - Round Two

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:35 am

We'll see more fallbacks as opposed to pushbacks in fog2 once we're in medieval, with most infantry being defensive spear.

w_michael
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Re: Sengoku Jidai tournament 2018 - Round Two

Post by w_michael » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:17 pm

SnuggleBunnies wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:35 am
We'll see more fallbacks as opposed to pushbacks in fog2 once we're in medieval, with most infantry being defensive spear.
I'm looking forward to when FOG2 reaches 1066 AD, because I am planning to adapt the board game Britannia for a 4-person campaign. Each player runs a team of factions as they come and go in Britain, starting from the Roman invasion up to the Norman invasion. https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/240/britannia
William Michael, Pike & Shot Campaigns & Field of Glory II enthusiast

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Re: Sengoku Jidai tournament 2018 - Round Two

Post by KiwiWarlord » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:45 pm

Speaking of competitions, this one thanks to Alan, has been a breath of fresh air for Sengoku Jidai, a most enjoyable and challenging one at that.
I would like to put a suggestion forward that at some time in the near future, we need a short break methinks, Sillygoy and SnuggleBunnies become Team leaders and all the other willing players go into a draw for which team they are on and we do it all again, maybe the Ming or the Koreans be involved.
How say you all ?
Last edited by KiwiWarlord on Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sengoku Jidai tournament 2018 - Round Two

Post by KiwiWarlord » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:48 pm

KiwiWarlord's 20,281 Ikko Ikki (17%) defeat ahuyton's 12926 Uesugi (47%)

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Re: Sengoku Jidai tournament 2018 - Round Two

Post by w_michael » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:46 pm

KiwiWarlord wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:45 pm
Speaking of competitions, this one thanks to Alan, has been a breath of fresh air for Sengoku Jidai, a most enjoyable and challenging one at that.
I would like to put a suggestion forward that at some time in the near future, we need a short break methinks, Sillygoy and SnuggleBunnies become Team leaders and all the other willing players go into a draw for which team they are on and we do it all again, maybe the Ming or the Koreans be involved.
How say you all ?
I'm all for that. Perhaps each team can be weighted by the performance in this tournament as well. This is my first time playing SJ, and I like it a lot. I prefer P&S for solitaire play, but I am keen for any challenges here.
William Michael, Pike & Shot Campaigns & Field of Glory II enthusiast

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