untrained Peasant Rabble

Sengoku Jidai: Shadow of the Shogun is a turn-based tactical and strategic game set during this turbulent time; primarily focusing on the Japanese Warring States period and Japanese Invasion of Korea. Other armies from East Asia are also made available to simulate different conflicts across the region.
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KiwiWarlord
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untrained Peasant Rabble

Post by KiwiWarlord »

Playing against the Ikko Ikki where my Uesugi are outnumbered by more than 2:1 ( one game it is 13,500 Uesugi v 30,600 Ikko Ikki ) due to the many thousands of raw Peasants available to the Ikko Ikki.
I am amazed at the speed & manoeuvrability of the raw untrained rabble on the battlefield.

Should their movement points be lowered or their cost increased ?
That is the question.
SnuggleBunnies
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Re: untrained Peasant Rabble

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

Well they are absolutely terrible in combat, and have a charming tendency to mass chain rout. If I recall correctly, being Mob, they can't charge cavalry? Might be wrong on that last one. They just suck though, just don't let them flank you. And of course, mutual disorder in woods make them much more resilient there.
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w_michael
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Re: untrained Peasant Rabble

Post by w_michael »

SJ doesn't have the Untrained attribute that FOG2 has. Neither does P&S for that matter. That, plus the speed (AP 12) makes Mob units better in SJ than elsewhere.

Peasants can't charge cavalry, but the Warriors can: "Foot units other than non-missile-armed Warriors or Determined Foot cannot charge non-light cavalry, even in the flank or rear".
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Re: untrained Peasant Rabble

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

Good to know. Wasn't sure because the mob unit in Pike and Shot can charge horse.
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w_michael
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Re: untrained Peasant Rabble

Post by w_michael »

The Mob in P&S only has 10 AP though, not 12 AP as in SJ.

Are you sure about Mob being able to charge cavalry in P&S? It says: "Foot units other than those with large pike blocks (keils) cannot charge cavalry, even in the flank or rear".
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Re: untrained Peasant Rabble

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

Yes, a later patch for PnS made it so non mixed melee infantry can charge horse. It may be an oversight; after all, the mob have neither impact nor melee capability. Or, the units are uncommon enough that it wasn't considered a big deal. Battles is PnS involve more open terrain and more cavalry, so mob units are in a precarious position, and they're only numerous in a few lists.

In any case, only a few units were effected by the change. I can think of:

Dismounted English Men at Arms
Mob
Rodeleros
Swiss Halberdiers
And Cornish Pikemen who have taken heavy enough losses to lose keil status

I think that's it.

Edit:

Getting off topic here, but this kind of touches on issues that I brought up a long time ago to Richard, though I didn't think at the time of the Mob units specifically. I do think the Mob units should, for historical performance's sake, not be able to move 3 tiles. The issue this sort of relates to is the in game evolution of Sengoku armies from Warriors to Medium Foot Ashigaru, which I still find weird. RIchard's explanation was that the Medium Foot reflects the growing discipline of Ashigaru armies. While the individual fighting qualities of the men may not have been as high as those earlier fighters infused with a warrior ethos, the new ways of war led to much larger armies. So in a hypothetical collision between, say, a 1540 and a 1600 Sengoku army, the average fighter in the 1540 list might be more skilled, but the 1600 army would be able to muster far more men.

While this sort of makes sense, the in game implications, I think, are far too severe on the later armies. The Medium Foot designation comes with one 'benefit' which really is situational - a lower likelihood to pursue. Their massive downside is that they lose AP, and can no longer move 3 squares forward or 2 at 45 degrees, but only the standard 2 and 1. In addition, unlike their Warrior brethren, they cannot attack cavalry. I really don't think these changes stand up to historical scrutiny at all, but I expect no changes in the matter. Granted, the armies are never meant to be balanced against non contemporary forces, but the portrayed devolution of Sengoku armies just feels wrong to me personally.
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w_michael
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Re: untrained Peasant Rabble

Post by w_michael »

I looked for a comprehensive change list, but couldn't find one. Since the manual is outdated, then I don't know for sure (but I will soon) whether Mob can charge mounted in SJ.

I can confirm that the infantry charging mounted rules in SJ are as per the manual.

I also noticed that the P&S Mob (Ottomans) has a troop quality of untrained (or -50 POA), while the SJ Mob (Ikko-Ikki) has a troop quality of raw (-25 POA). The Uesugi may have some raw and average quality troops, so the Peasants aren't at as much of a disadvantage against these, especially if they are in rough terrain.
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GiveWarAchance
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Re: untrained Peasant Rabble

Post by GiveWarAchance »

I have this Sengoku game and Field of Glory 2, but do you think I need Pike & Shot too? These two fantastic games SJ and Fog2 have giant replayability so I often wondered if buying Pike & Shot might be overload for something similar.
What do you think? I know nothing about Pike except that it is in Europe and has the same game engine I think as these two games.
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Re: untrained Peasant Rabble

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

I could give you a more detailed answer if you like, but if you like Sengoku and FoG2, you'll love Pike and Shot too. It's 60% off right now, a more than reasonable $16, especially considering Slitherines past reluctance to do deep discounts.
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Pixel
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Re: untrained Peasant Rabble

Post by Pixel »

Also Pike and Shot: Campaigns has a ton of community made content. :mrgreen:
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