Teppo Light Foot vs Medium Foot

Sengoku Jidai: Shadow of the Shogun is a turn-based tactical and strategic game set during this turbulent time; primarily focusing on the Japanese Warring States period and Japanese Invasion of Korea. Other armies from East Asia are also made available to simulate different conflicts across the region.
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kvnrthr
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Teppo Light Foot vs Medium Foot

Post by kvnrthr »

I find it odd that in later time periods light foot teppo are replaced with medium foot/warrior teppo. Gameplay wise, I can't think of any reason why this would be done. The light foot can evade charges and do not get disordered in forests, while suffering less from return fire by virtue of being light foot.

The warriors and medium foot get the dubious advantage of charging with zero capabilities in impact or melee. Good to get the occasional flank charge, but overall it has more opportunities to hurt itself than the enemy in a close quarters fight.

Why did this conversion take place historically then?
SnuggleBunnies
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Re: Teppo Light Foot vs Medium Foot

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

The lights are smaller units, so they have much less firepower, and can't take as many casualties. Also, being lights they can't cause cohesion drops with flank attacks against non lights.
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kongxinga
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Re: Teppo Light Foot vs Medium Foot

Post by kongxinga »

kvnrthr wrote:I find it odd that in later time periods light foot teppo are replaced with medium foot/warrior teppo. Gameplay wise, I can't think of any reason why this would be done. The light foot can evade charges and do not get disordered in forests, while suffering less from return fire by virtue of being light foot.

The warriors and medium foot get the dubious advantage of charging with zero capabilities in impact or melee. Good to get the occasional flank charge, but overall it has more opportunities to hurt itself than the enemy in a close quarters fight.

Why did this conversion take place historically then?
I remember the devs did talk about their design decisions, and sure enough, I found it via the Faction Preview (Japan).

Here is a link http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... ew#p624324

In short the relevant quote is here:
By 1577, samurai cavalry had lost its appeal due to changes in battlefield technology and tactics. And by 1592, ashigaru infantry tactics evolved into fighting in close formation. They would receive better training and form the backbone of the Late Sengoku Era army. Ashigaru infantry, including yumi and teppō armed units, are now classified as Medium Foot.
In short, originally, there was not enough teppo to arm actual shooting formations, and hence teppo were used to arm small skirmishing units that fought in loose order. As Japanese teppo manufacturing took off, the warlords could and did arm large amounts of ashigaru and hence could begin actually shooting and fighting in closer formations, hence the move to medium foot. I recall one history source said that Japan had developed teppo formations so much that in the Imjin war the Ming reinforcements were shocked to encounter the withering infantry firepower, while the Japanese were similarly impressed by Ming field artillery. This is represented quite well in game.

Gameplay wise, I don't like armies with no skirmishers (lights), since they play a important role in screening and soaking fire (such as Northern Ming with no skirmishers at all, iirc). Japanese armies still get Samurai Teppo which are dragoons, and those can fill the role. But yeah in game skirmishers can soak a ton of ranged damage, and basically delay one flank while you push hard on the other, and worth every gold coin.
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Re: Teppo Light Foot vs Medium Foot

Post by ErissN6 »

SnuggleBunnies wrote:smaller units, so they have much less firepower
They are not elite. Light infantry were usually the best of the line infantry made loose, they were not small units (nor big), and they were the more endurant, smart, and sharpshooter.
The early tepo are 'light infantry' mainly for they are small.. they rather should be named 'small infantry' ...
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Re: Teppo Light Foot vs Medium Foot

Post by cranston »

ERISS wrote:
SnuggleBunnies wrote:smaller units, so they have much less firepower
They are not elite. Light infantry were usually the best of the line infantry made loose, they were not small units (nor big), and they were the more endurant, smart, and sharpshooter.
The early tepo are 'light infantry' mainly for they are small.. they rather should be named 'small infantry' ...
Not true in this case.
Teppo were inaccurate weapons, and there weren't enough of them to field in sufficient numbers.

In the game, the "light" teppo are actually more useful than they were in real life.
Because in real life, they didn't have radios and couldn't even be used as scouts. :P
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Re: Teppo Light Foot vs Medium Foot

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

Eriss, they are lights in that they have the ability to evade, which non lights do not. I don't understand what you mean by elite, but by "best of the line" you seem to be making a reference to napoleonic light infantry doctrine, which has no relevance here whatsoever. Line infantry wouldn't exist until well after the timeframe of this game, and certainly not in Japan until the Meiji era.
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ErissN6
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Re: Teppo Light Foot vs Medium Foot

Post by ErissN6 »

Yes, my post was bad, it's not really what I wanted to write lol. I went in a bad logical way comming from I supposed the 1st post was about: influenced by napoleonic light inf.
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