Basic tips and tactics?

Sengoku Jidai: Shadow of the Shogun is a turn-based tactical and strategic game set during this turbulent time; primarily focusing on the Japanese Warring States period and Japanese Invasion of Korea. Other armies from East Asia are also made available to simulate different conflicts across the region.
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Cheesehead
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Basic tips and tactics?

Post by Cheesehead »

I'm learning to play this and Pike & Shot.

Love the games but I'm really struggling.

Can anyone post some basic tips and tactics?
cranston
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Re: Basic tips and tactics?

Post by cranston »

Depending on which era (years) you're playing with, units have different characteristics. Best to use only one specific set until you're familiar with them.
GiveWarAchance
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Re: Basic tips and tactics?

Post by GiveWarAchance »

Here are my cardinal rules of Sengoku Jidai warfare:

You need to practice a lot and be very careful about deployment, division integrity, use the terrain wisely, keep your ranged units out of melee, and above all, always try to break through and create a domino rout effect amongst the badguys.
I was getting whooped by Sengoku's crafty, ruthless AI, until I was able to play the game like Sun Tzu would with full awareness and careful attention to every detail.
Look at your troops before battle and know the ones with high morale and armor that won't break in front of the enemy horde so they can hold your center, while the weak ashigaru units can cover your flanks and intercept badguys that are trying to get stuck in your fragile ranged units.
Keep the commander's tent near (but not on) the front line for extra morale support, especially on defense.
Put some extra units behind your line in reserve a few squares back to counterattack breakthroughs. The clever AI will roll up your flanks or punch through your center and create rolling havoc if you give Oda the chance.

And when you choose yours and the enemy's armies, be sure they are both in the same time period for fair battles.

I can give more tips if you are interested. This is just a quick summary.
The game gets a lot more satisfying after you defeat Oda's oppressive field army with a sweet 5:1 or even 10:1 kill ratio. It's very hard but can be done if you put your brain in low gear and let the spirit of Sun Tzu guide your battle tactics.
jomni
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Re: Basic tips and tactics?

Post by jomni »

Some other tips.
1) Clever use of terrain. It is crucial. Know which troops fight better in woods (e.g. Non spear, non horse)
2) Aim to attack from flanks. And protect your flanks.
3) If you are a horse army, don't ignore light horses. Purchase them and don't spend too much on elite units.
GiveWarAchance
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Re: Basic tips and tactics?

Post by GiveWarAchance »

Ya I missed horses. And monks.

Horses usually have generals attached, so it is best to keep them behind your line so units have command support and as a last-ditch defense if the line collapses.
Some horses don't have a general attached so they can either be held back as mobile reserves or send them on wide flanking runs behind the enemy to get at their shooters or threaten their commander in chief.
The AI is smart and will assign spear units to counter the horses but that is okay cause it takes pressure off your own spear units which are prone to routing if under too much pressure.

Another unit are the monks which are mostly unarmored like the Sohei which soak up arrows like a new white sofa soaks up spilled cafe mocha. They don't get the deflect arrows perk like monks do in Dungeons & Dragons. Best to use monks as reserves or hide them in trees to use in ambushes so they avoid coming under fire.
Last edited by GiveWarAchance on Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
GiveWarAchance
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Re: Basic tips and tactics?

Post by GiveWarAchance »

After typing up my 'tips', I promptly went and got myself whooped by Oda again :(
The problem was I tried to get creative in what should have been the final showdown with the deadly Oda.
I had both Oda armies corralled into one province and I attacked with 13,000 troops against their 16,000. They always outnumber us in battle so I wasn't worried.
I should have been worried.
The battleground was a narrow valley between two forests.
Part of my army was late and I sent another full division (6 units) on a wide sweep around the forest to come up behind the enemy to burn down their commander's campground and cause havoc.
Unfortunately this meant my main attack in the valley would be outnumbered by about 3 times the number of Oda and they had better quality troops versus my weak ashigaru spear peasants and weak cavalry.

My main force squeezed into the valley and was aggressively surrounded by the huge Oda force which massacred our troops both in the open and in the dark forest.
My forces that came late struggled to stop rampaging Odas from burning down our commander's tent but it was like trying to stop a herd of angry elephants with a pair of chopsticks.
Meanwhile my flanking force, after a long march, burnt down the Oda commander's camp and then was overwhelmed by a ruthless counterattack fueled with rage over their lost camping gear.
So I lost 2 generals and about 7700 troops and only about 2760 Odas got what they deserved cause their routers returned to them.
I need to regroup and do it again before the Oda break out and go on a land grabbing rampage which would undo all my careful campaign work.
GiveWarAchance
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Re: Basic tips and tactics?

Post by GiveWarAchance »

We went in again to try and finish off the last Oda hideout.
My troops had no rest or refit and were at half strength with about 250 soldiers in each unit.
The morale rating was 'terrified' for most of my troops and some were only 'demoralized'.
I combined my tattered army with a small detachment from another clan than joined our noble crusade against the Oda bullies.
Then we attacked.

Some of my army was late arriving again, so I used Hannibal's strategy at Zama, which is to form up your troops in a couple of lines facing a superior enemy, cross your fingers, and hope for the best.
Oda ground through my troops with crazy combat kill ratios in their favor like 46:4 becoming a common sight.
Only my riflemen, hunkered down in rocky ground, were able to score moderate kills on the enemy before they were surrounded and slaughtered.
My army became discouraged and ran from the field leaving over 6000 troops behind and only 1250 or so Odas smitten as compensation for the disaster. :cry:
I will need a proper refit and hopefully some better quality troops hired before trying again. These ham-fisted attempts at battering the Oda into submission were epic fails. Oda will most probably grab large portions of my land but I can't stop that for now. I have 907 yen banked but don't have a good province for hiring troops.

Sorry for my deluded attempt at offering advice. Basically if you want to do well with Sengoku Jidai, just do the exact opposite of everything I say and do.

Sorry for hijacking this thread. I should probably have just written up an AAR. I'll make a full AAR of my next campaign after (I most probably lose) this one.
Last edited by GiveWarAchance on Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
GiveWarAchance
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Re: Basic tips and tactics?

Post by GiveWarAchance »

Okay I found the screenshots. When you push F2 it saves a screenshot in Documents/my games/SJIDAI folder.

Here is Oda being defeated due to a deadly flank attack by our riflemen and horses.

Image

And here is a typical battle where Oda crushes the weak Uesugi army in a trademark Oda frontal assault of overwhelming power.

Image

I lost a couple more battles 6000 versus 1000 lost in one battle and then 7200 vs 2700 lost in the next one.
Even worse, the evil Aoi clan switched sides to Oda and the Toyotomi clan also joined Oda's evil campaign so the Oda are gaining a lot of power after being cornered earlier.
GiveWarAchance
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Re: Basic tips and tactics?

Post by GiveWarAchance »

Most important tip is to use the L button when finishing your turn to check for unmoved units. The list shows red units as finished and a blue-grey color means they haven't moved yet.
For the generals, it is best to keep them out of combat if possible so they provide the movement and morale bonuses to their units.

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stegg88
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Re: Basic tips and tactics?

Post by stegg88 »

I notice no one has posted any real advice on the forums here. When I started this game I got slapped around in the TUTORIAL of all places. I came looking for advice, found none really, went back, tried tried and tried again and got gud! I am now putting the difficulty up and going back through campaigns. 40 hours in and I rarely ever lose a battle anymore unless seriously outnumbered.

You want to get good at sengoku jidai? OK, well here is my ten cents.

1. Chain morale breaking is how you win. Defeating one or two units only gets you so far. A unit break makes all nearby units take morale checks and has the potential for them to drop from ordered to disordered or disordered to fractured or fractured to routing. Causing a couple of good routs in the thick of an enemy force can be enough to rout the entire army or at the very least, disorder plenty of their units making them a lot easier to smash aside. How do we do this? Read on....

2. Morale is key, I cannot stress this enough. Heavy shooting at a unit should break its morale so if a tough unit is coming and you have strong shooting, smash it until it becomes disordered (explain why in a minute). A flanking charge is another way to drop a units morale from ordered to disordered. I see people on here saying "keep your archers away from combat" I would disagree. Once combat is engaged I creep them up the flanks looking for new targets and the occasional flank. Those samurai archers are tough as nails in close combat and a strong flank charge into an already engaged unit can be enough to change the tide of the battle, dropping their morale so the unit in the front can do some proper damage.

See, it comes down to, the damage calculator. A unit that is disordered or even worse fractured will very rarely win combat. They will suffer even heavier losses sending them closer to break point. Some tougher units may fight for a long time at disordered but even some lowly peasants who are well ordered will put up a respectable fight against even the toughest units if disordered.

And the key to causing part 1, those mass routs? Making sure when the enemy reaches your lines they have a couple of disordered troops in their midst. Smash into them with 2-3 units, break them and start punching through their lines, causing the domino morale checks. Especially peasant units, when disordered one good charge followed by a couple rounds of combat should be more than enough to see them off.

3. terrain. This is super important, especially for cavalry. Units with spears or cavalry fight better in the plains, light infantry, units with swords or heavy weapons (I believe, dont quote me on heavy weapons) fight better in dense terrain, forests, rough terrain or in mountains. A sword unit in the open 9/10 times will get annihilated but stick them in the forest and see their survivability increase. On top of this, they are hidden when in the forest and can be used to sneak around flanks and disorder the enemy through flank charges. an enemy with a strong cavalry can be well and truly nullified in the forest. Look at your height advantages too, taking the high ground and sitting on it is a great way to nullify an enemy advantage. Do anything you can to increase the damage you are doing in combat in order to complete point 1

4. The point of shooting is not to kill, it is to achieve goals 2 and 1. Do not try and "kill" with shooting, you should be focusing your fire every turn on ONE or TWO units if you have the firepower. Shoot one unit repeatedly until it becomes disordered, then SWITCH TARGETS. As it is disordered it is now ripe for a charge from your infantry followed by them breaking and causing panic. The goal of your shooting is to inflict disordered on as many units as possible before they hit your lines. Once the liens are engaged, dont waste shots shooting fleeing units, move them, get them into flanking positions or positions to shoot their other units that are free. Units that are VERY susceptible to ranged attacks are units with zero armour (sohei in the Japanese campaigns for example). Units that you shouldnt waste your shots on are heavily armoured units (unless you have guns of course). You are looking for maximum kill possibilities in order to create the most amount of disorder.

(note, fast cavalry archers like those of the Koreans are phenomenally good at this job AND super cheap to boot. 4-5 of them peppering one target will easily disorder one unit a turn)

Shooting should only be used on disordered or fractured units when you are either trying to protect a flank or are mopping up to finish the battle. Otherwise I personally prefer to switch targets. (One thing though is that I have essentially stopped flank charges with heavy shooting, reducing a disordered unit to fractured and stopping the charge, something to consider. These are not rules, you change your plans based on your circumstances)

5. Cavalry are your finishers. Once the unit is disordered, a frontal cavalry charge will finish them off. Cavalry are also great for charging around the enemy flank. This is true of almost every game though so I dont think I should spend too long explaining this. DO NOT charge ordered infantry in the front if you dont have to. You will get bogged down in combat and that will be the end of your cavalry. Your aim is to spend at most 2-3 turns in combat and then chase when routing, plowing into the back of the enemy lines, hitting the juicy underbelly that is their ranged units (which you should plow through usually). fighting cavalry with cavalry is only useful if you can then have infantry supporting otherwise you are tossing the dice on whether you win or lose.

Cavalry do not necessary need to come in from a far flank though, one tactic I enjoy doing with them is staggering my main line horizontally and then letting the cavalry charge through the gaps. Often once the enemy engages, in my turn I will make my cavalry charge the weaker peasant units, often plowing through them and then BEHIND the front of the enemies staggered line, turning round to then plow into the rear.

6. If you out number the enemy, threaten flanks if you dont, protect your own.

I like to have a very long line rather than a deep line. If an enemy unit approaches me unsupported, no matter how tough it is, if you have 2 units to their one and you are SMART you will be any unit they have. put your two units about two squares apart and angle them in wards, the enemy unit must go for one leaving the flank open for the other to charge, This will usually mean that peasant units can then fight with samurai units. If they both charge head on however the samurai unit will win.

7. overrun! When in combat, the enemy will flee AWAY from the charge, you will follow in that direction. If, without turning, there is an enemy in your path, you will continue charging into them. It doesn't ALWAYS work as we lose control when our units get blood thirsty but with good planning you can safely make it so that your units will over run into the enemy units. Like wise, one way of protecting your flanks is to leave one or two sacrificial units far out on the flanks. The enemy may take the bait, charge them and spend about 5-6 turns coming back to the combat. (I use this a lot to deal with particularly tough cavalry)

8. Most fights are over before they begin. With good positioning, your outcome should be assured. 90 percent of the time, flankers will win unless against tough troops, some very poor rng or bad terrain. One thing to note is if the unit you flanked is not engaged in the front they will TURN TO FACE YOU IN THE NEXT COMBAT ROUND. When I say flank, I mean flank already engaged units to secure victory. flanking an engaged unit is good but wont always work. Look at your combat percentages, not only for the first turn but second turns. also not the second turn score is if their is NO MORALE CHANGE. If you are pretty sure you will make them disordered, ignore the second round combat predictions as they will be seriously off.

There are people on steam complaining about the rng of this game but its a load of rubbish. If you are losing it is due to bad positioning, planning and manoeuvring. You should NEVER be fighting in straight lines hoping that your units come out on top. Make angles, create flank attacks, break morale and overrun. Those complaining about the rng, I would happily play online and show you that this game is more akin to chess than to say xcom or some other rng orientated game. If you are losing, I promise you, its not an rng issue, its a tactical issue you need to work on. I got hammered in this game until one day it clicked. It has a steep learning curve and takes time but its so beautiful once you have it.

I hope someone gets help from this. There isn't much in the way of tactics online for this game yet I truly love this. If enough people are interested I could do a full write up for all the armies.
jomni
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Re: Basic tips and tactics?

Post by jomni »

Thanks for a very detailed response.
rbodleyscott
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Re: Basic tips and tactics?

Post by rbodleyscott »

Very good advice.
Richard Bodley Scott

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