(Bug?)Yari Ashigaru Displayed Melee Value too low?

Sengoku Jidai: Shadow of the Shogun is a turn-based tactical and strategic game set during this turbulent time; primarily focusing on the Japanese Warring States period and Japanese Invasion of Korea. Other armies from East Asia are also made available to simulate different conflicts across the region.
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kongxinga
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(Bug?)Yari Ashigaru Displayed Melee Value too low?

Post by kongxinga » Sat May 21, 2016 7:47 pm

Hi,

I am playing the second battle of the Sengoku Jidai Campaigns as Takeda versus Hojo (Battle of Mimasetoge).

In the purchase screen, as Takeda I can choose to buy more Yari Samurai or Yari Ashigaru.

Yari Samurai are superior, but has the same armour as the Ashigaru, are the same type (warriors) and have the same capabilities. They cost 54 to the Ashigaru's 34. So far so good.

However, when you hover over the Samurai, they have a melee value of 330. That is ok, they really are that good.

But for the Ashigaru, for some reason, their displayed melee value is 30 (?!). I would like to take a screenshot, but am not using steam, and PrintScreen takes a picture of my desktop instead of the game.

For comparison, a mob with no capabilities has melee value of 77. Light skirmishers have melee of 50ish. I know ashigaru are worse, but samurai can't be 11 times better right? This looks like a display error of some sorts.

rbodleyscott
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Re: (Bug?)Yari Ashigaru Displayed Melee Value too low?

Post by rbodleyscott » Sat May 21, 2016 8:10 pm

The game is being too clever for its own good by displaying the actual combat value of the first selectable ashigaru unit. Which in this case happens to be in a wood and hence severely disordered.

If you select it and one of the other ashigaru units and then go into the scenario, you will see that the ashigaru units in the open in fact have a combat value of around 230, whereas the one in the wood has a combat value of circa 30 (while in the wood). Move it out of the wood and its combat rating will jump back to its normal value.

The force selection screen appears to be displaying the combat rating for the first unit of the type that it finds for all of the units regardless of their circumstances. It would obviously be better if it showed the basic combat rating rather than the circumstantial combat rating, and we will look into correcting this in the next patch.

However, as a general rule I would not take too much notice of the combat ratings. They are only there as an extremely general guide for those who have not yet picked up the nuances of the capabilities, POAs, troop quality, terrain effects etc. They are not used to calculate combat results - in fact the ratings are calculated on the fly using the combat mechanisms, as this example demonstrates.
Richard Bodley Scott

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kongxinga
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Re: (Bug?)Yari Ashigaru Displayed Melee Value too low?

Post by kongxinga » Sat May 21, 2016 8:57 pm

Thanks for the reply! I do understand that since Pike and shot that the interaction of capabilities and POAs are far more important than raw values. I just found it strange how two very similar units had such big difference in capabilities.

I never knew how badly woods affected Spearman. I was thinking being severely disordered meant fighting at perhaps 50% efficiency, but a drop from 230 to 30, is huge! Is it this bad for cavalry in woods as well? I think have a new strategy for foot shooting lists with medium infantry. Instead of hiding in the rough, I am going to find the next clump of woods and move everything in there to avoid the spears.

rbodleyscott
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Re: (Bug?)Yari Ashigaru Displayed Melee Value too low?

Post by rbodleyscott » Sat May 21, 2016 9:18 pm

kongxinga wrote:I never knew how badly woods affected Spearman. I was thinking being severely disordered meant fighting at perhaps 50% efficiency, but a drop from 230 to 30, is huge! Is it this bad for cavalry in woods as well? I think have a new strategy for foot shooting lists with medium infantry. Instead of hiding in the rough, I am going to find the next clump of woods and move everything in there to avoid the spears.
Good plan. Spearmen are particularly badly affected by Difficult Going in SJ. Other weapon types not so much. Cavalry are also very badly affected.
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rbodleyscott
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Re: (Bug?)Yari Ashigaru Displayed Melee Value too low?

Post by rbodleyscott » Sun May 22, 2016 7:53 am

We have looked into this issue, and because of the way that the program calculates combat ratings using the actual combat mechanisms, there isn't an easy fix.

As this issue will never affect skirmish or campaign battles (because the units are not deployed on the map at the force selection stage) and won't affect most historical scenarios either (it will only affect them if the first unit of a type the program looks at is in disordering terrain), and the close combat ratings are deprecated anyway, it would be hard to justify the programming time involved.
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Re: (Bug?)Yari Ashigaru Displayed Melee Value too low?

Post by Huskie » Wed May 25, 2016 1:46 am

rbodleyscott wrote:We have looked into this issue, and because of the way that the program calculates combat ratings using the actual combat mechanisms, there isn't an easy fix.

As this issue will never affect skirmish or campaign battles (because the units are not deployed on the map at the force selection stage) and won't affect most historical scenarios either (it will only affect them if the first unit of a type the program looks at is in disordering terrain), and the close combat ratings are deprecated anyway, it would be hard to justify the programming time involved.
In my opinion dev. there is no need to fix it as it's in my opinion "technically" not a bug. It is the game doing what it is suppose to do. If people get confused by this all need to do when posting in forums is just copy and paste what you wrote, it is just game calculating unit in rough terrain as it is suppose to.
When soldiers have been baptized in the fire of a battle-field, they have all one rank in my eyes. ~Napoleon Bonaparte

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