Britannicus, a Legion Arena Mod

[Redpossum]

possum,

Hi. Thank you for the very quick response.

I've sent you a note via PM with information about the SaveGame file.

PM'ed you back, bro.

I've tried re-fighting the first three scenarios tonight and a) I do slightly better and b) I don't see the problem of disappearing troops. So whatever it was is not easily reproduced.

Huh, who knows? Software glitches (shrug) I'd still like to see the savegame.

Glad you did a bit better second time around. I've played the campaign through 5 or 6 times since I released it, and there seems to be quite a bit of randomness in those first 4 scenarios. So much so that I might in fact be strongly tempted to start again if I did badly in the first scenario.

Something I noticed in my work-in-progress Rise of Carthage campaign, in which the player's starting forces include some heavy infantry. It seems to cost 5 fame to replace a light infantryman, but 10 fame to replace a heavy infantryman.

I am running version V1.0101 which is also useful for me to know.

Yes, you must have the patch or the engine will not "see" any mods installed.

I'm intrigued by your reference to "Rise of Carthage". I'd rather assumed that Slitherine must have hired you as a scenario designer by now.

OMG, don't I wish!

One thing I particularly like about Britannicus is how well it follows from the two standard campaigns. Having to fight with such limited resources (and replacements) is forcing me to think more about what I'm doing and how best to use different troops. In the standard scenarios I had a tendency to use heavy cavalry and infantry as a battering ram and I usually got away with it, even if it meant a lot of recruiting afterwards. On the other hand if I'd encountered this as the very first campaign I might have given up.

Thank you, sir, thank you very much. I did attempt to present a sort of "graduate course" in Legion Arena. The campaign is tricky, and intended to be so. Of the first 4 scenarios, "Bandits" is a slugging match, and mostly just about getting the right matchups. The other 3 are all about correct use of terrain, although "Traitor" requires some careful juggling to make certain the engagement with the Bodyguard swordsmen takes place in the stream.

In retrospect, I think "Visiting the Neighbors II" is just too hard, and the last three scenarios need to be more difficult by a moderate amount. Perhaps one day I'll re-work it with some additional material and release Britannicus V2.0

Anyway, if this helps you I'm happy to do whatever I can at this end.

And now to sort out the Picts ...

Best wishes,

Geoff.

Ohh, those Picts, those dirty Picts.....

[kongming]

Since the time of the below post from Britannicus, Freeverse has published the patch. The trick is to "control-click" on the application so one gets the "show package content" option. This is detailed more in the "modding for mac" thread including how to replace the files in the original "package" with Possum's new files. Seems to work very well.

Yeah, it bites
AFAIK, the answer is that no mods are playable on the Mac, because the patch is required to activate the mod menu, and the Mac version is still pre-patch.

I would, however, point out that this is (unfortunately) out of Slitherine's hands.

[Redpossum]

sweet!

[gwinn]

I finally finished the Britannicus campaign over the Christmas period and I've been really impressed at how neatly it moves on from the original LA campaigns. I thought the story line works well, especially the fact that we get to see Britannicus and his men develop in a realistic time frame. I was sufficiently engrossed that towards the end I think I spoiled it a bit for myself by rushing through scenarios to see what would happen next. As a result there were several occasions when my troops were clinging on to victory by their finger nails.

If anyone hasn't tried this mod then I strongly recommend it.

I have a couple of questions / comments.

In the scenario called "The Duel" (the 7th I think) Britannicus gets to fight one on one. I struggled with that and I think it's because I chose the wrong promotions (eg too much quick thinking and not enough swordsmanship) but I also wonder if maybe I missed something - is there a better tactic than just "Charge!"?

My one small complaint is that right at the end I really wanted more of an opportunity to dispose of Lucius in a more - how can I put this - painful way but I guess that's not in the spirit of the game really is it?

Thanks again possum.

Geoff.

[kleinemann]

It doesn't work for mac, does it?

[pipfromslitherine]

The Modding for the Mac sticky at the top of this forum seems to suggest that it does - so hurrah!

Hope you can enjoy this great mod.

Cheers

Pip

[Redpossum]

Ah, thank you all so much for your kind words!

Geoff, I'm so glad you finished this and enjoyed it. That Britannicus mod was an experience for me. My muse was in full cry for one of the vanishingly few times in my life, and I went for it with a vengeance.

What pleased me so much about the storyline was the way I was able to take the story suggested by Graves in Claudius the God and tie it in to the Iceni Rebellion with an alternate ending. Of course, once the rebellion had succeeded, I was on my own as far as story, but it seemed obvious from there. March on Rome, what else?

I did do a fair measure of research for Britannicus, but it was fairly casual, and in no way up to proper academic standards. Nonetheless, I think I've got the right legions in the right places at the right times. The only point of controversy is the whereabouts of governor Gaius Suetonius Paulinus during the initial stages of the Iceni Rebellion.

Anyhow, glad you all enjoyed it. I'd package it for the Mac if I knew how.

***edit***

No, there is no better tactic than Charging for The Duel.

I don't really know about that scenario. I was inspired to insert it where I did, it forms parts of the gestalt, but I'm entirely willing to admit it's a bit silly, in one sense

[kleinemann]

The Modding for the Mac sticky at the top of this forum seems to suggest that it does - so hurrah!

Hope you can enjoy this great mod.

Cheers

Pip

Fantastic

[kongming]

Just to confirm here, I have installed and am currently playing the Britannicus mod on a Mac. It has worked flawlessly. The installation process is described in the Modding on the Mac thread.

[kongming]

It is probably also helpful to link in the site for the patch that seems to be the key. Freeverse has published update 1.1.1 on its website, http://www.freeverse.com/games/game/?id=6001. According to other posts this must be installed to allow modding. Every Mac user should install it anyways since it allows you to finally rollover the terrain and other units and see their attributed on the key tips rather than just guessing.

[kongming]

Possum, I have now finished up to the Civil War. To date I have seen nothing that would indicate that the mod had not been part of the original package. Very professionally finished. And the little elements of humor (shepherds) and details are very welcome. The storyline is compelling and the overall arc of the campaign great. I want to find out what happens next and how my boys will do.

I hope that Slitherine will look to incorporate a bit more "storytelling" in any future products based around the LA engine. When I first bought LA I dreamily anticipated that we would be following the story of Caesar as told in the Gallic Wars through the eyes of a officer in his command, rather than jumping through the greatest hits of Roman history from Marius to Augustus.

I'm looking forward to seeing what is next. Thanks a ton Possum.

[gwinn]

No, there is no better tactic than Charging for The Duel.

I don't really know about that scenario. I was inspired to insert it where I did, it forms parts of the gestalt, but I'm entirely willing to admit it's a bit silly, in one sense

Hmm. We have slightly different perspectives I liked that scenario because it fits so well into the storyline and it's a complete departure from any other scenario. The "weakness" I saw (after my own misjudgement) is that the LA battle engine is (understandably) not well suited to one-on-one combat. Personally I think that an occasional off the wall scenario like that is welcome when it so obviously fits in the campaign.

I hope it isn't bad manners to mention other games here, but I recently helped my son play "Codename: Panzers" (You can probably guess what it's mostly about ). It's not really my thing, but it contained one scenario with no tanks (in fact no vehicles at all) just a handful of infantry chasing partisans and again, although the game engine wasn't that well suited, it added a lot to the interest of the campaign.

I'd also echo kongming's remark, that I hope Slitherine are able to incorporate more of this kind of story telling in future releases. Maybe something called "Rise of Carthage"

[Redpossum]

No, there is no better tactic than Charging for The Duel.

I don't really know about that scenario. I was inspired to insert it where I did, it forms parts of the gestalt, but I'm entirely willing to admit it's a bit silly, in one sense

Hmm. We have slightly different perspectives I liked that scenario because it fits so well into the storyline and it's a complete departure from any other scenario. The "weakness" I saw (after my own misjudgement) is that the LA battle engine is (understandably) not well suited to one-on-one combat. Personally I think that an occasional off the wall scenario like that is welcome when it so obviously fits in the campaign.

...(paragraph omitted for clarity...

I'd also echo kongming's remark, that I hope Slitherine are able to incorporate more of this kind of story telling in future releases. Maybe something called "Rise of Carthage"

Well, odd you should say that, because I'm wrestling with just that issue, and my inability to resolve it thus far is the reason for my recent lack of progress.

The storytelling element you refer to was largely possible because Britannicus covers a large number of events within the lifetime of a single man.

The Rise of Carthage campaign as I currently have it outlined (I'm not done with storyboarding it yet) begins with Princess Alissar fleeing Tyre in 821 BC, and ends with the conclusion of the Pyrrhic War in 275 BC. No, I'm not including the Punic Wars. This is the Rise of Carthage, not the Fall of Carthage!

OK, so, you see my dilemma. How do I preserve that personal storytelling feeling over a tale that spans five and a half centuries?

There is one possible solution that occurred to me, though I mention it with some embarassment. I suppose I could employ the "conceit" (using that word in the poetic sense) that the player is the Princess Alissar herself, and after her death the spirit of the Princess Alissar, assigned by Baal and Astarte to guide and watch over the destiny of her people. As I say, I cringe a bit at the thought of trying to sell that one to a basically hard-nosed wargaming audience, but I'll be damned if I can come up with anything else that I like.

Even this approach has some pitfalls. How do I deal with the issue of Alissar's death? Virgil's version of her death rings horribly false for me, being based as it is on a strictly and unthinkingly patriarchal worldview, in which women were viewed as chattel, and "used goods" if abandoned by their man.

But Alissar, or Dido as Virgil called her, was the product of a female-centered religion which viewed women as the primary givers of life, and men as of lesser importance. A society shaped by such a religion views the departure of a man as little cause for serious concern.

In other words, the Princess Alissar that was, having been strong enough to escape her murderous brother, keep her large train of followers together through 7 years of wandering, and then successfully found a new city in the wilderness, was not about to kill herself in wailing despair because Aeneas wandered off to play with the Italians!

Hmmph. So much for Virgil

Anyhow, that's the storyline dilemma that's holding me up. The other roadblocks are all strictly mechanical issues, and I can deal with those.

[gwinn]

Well, odd you should say that, because I'm wrestling with just that issue, and my inability to resolve it thus far is the reason for my recent lack of progress.

The storytelling element you refer to was largely possible because Britannicus covers a large number of events within the lifetime of a single man.

The Rise of Carthage campaign as I currently have it outlined (I'm not done with storyboarding it yet) begins with Princess Alissar fleeing Tyre in 821 BC, and ends with the conclusion of the Pyrrhic War in 275 BC. No, I'm not including the Punic Wars. This is the Rise of Carthage, not the Fall of Carthage!

OK, so, you see my dilemma. How do I preserve that personal storytelling feeling over a tale that spans five and a half centuries?

There is one possible solution that occurred to me, though I mention it with some embarassment. I suppose I could employ the "conceit" (using that word in the poetic sense) that the player is the Princess Alissar herself, and after her death the spirit of the Princess Alissar, assigned by Baal and Astarte to guide and watch over the destiny of her people. As I say, I cringe a bit at the thought of trying to sell that one to a basically hard-nosed wargaming audience, but I'll be damned if I can come up with anything else that I like.

Even this approach has some pitfalls. How do I deal with the issue of Alissar's death? Virgil's version of her death rings horribly false for me, being based as it is on a strictly and unthinkingly patriarchal worldview, in which women were viewed as chattel, and "used goods" if abandoned by their man.

But Alissar, or Dido as Virgil called her, was the product of a female-centered religion which viewed women as the primary givers of life, and men as of lesser importance. A society shaped by such a religion views the departure of a man as little cause for serious concern.

In other words, the Princess Alissar that was, having been strong enough to escape her murderous brother, keep her large train of followers together through 7 years of wandering, and then successfully found a new city in the wilderness, was not about to kill herself in wailing despair because Aeneas wandered off to play with the Italians!

Hmmph. So much for Virgil

Anyhow, that's the storyline dilemma that's holding me up. The other roadblocks are all strictly mechanical issues, and I can deal with those.

I do see the dilemma.

I'm reluctant to poke my nose in here since you are the one doing the work! However, a couple of things occur to me

1. As I may have mentioned I like Britannicus a lot. However that does not mean that I didn't like the original Roman campaign in LA. If "The Rise of Carthage" spans over 500 years then it is more like LA's Roman Campaign and it may just be best to copy what that does, where the player just assumes command of each battle. That didn't bother me when I played it (and still doesn't). The plus points in Britannicus are more than just the central hero. The fact that the scenarios are individually more challenging, the fame and denarii awarded at each stage seemed less than in regular LA, and the fact that there is a coherent story line are also important and only the last of those depends on a single commander.

2. I actually quite like the idea of Alissa's spirit watching over the rise of her city. As for her death, well, given what the Romans thought of Carthage, I wouldn't feel too constrained by what Virgil wrote. You could make up a suitably heroic death vaguely modeled on whatever historical events fit. Of course, if Alissa "dies" during the campaign (as I guess she does) then it might be a challenge explaining that to a player who hasn't read this thread

3. Another slightly bizarre alternative occurs to me. Could you make the leader be different generations in a family line? If the scenarios in the campaign group together in blocks then you might be able to do something like ...

First 3 scenarios occur in a 5 year period so are led by Duke Harold (I'm not good with Carthaginian culture )

Next 4 occur 50 years later and are "led" by his grandson. You might need to introduce this with some preamble about him leading the army founded by his ancestor. And so on. It isn't quite as neat as Britannicus, and frankly I prefer the spirit of Alissa idea, but it is at least an alternative.

I hope that helps.

[kongming]

I echo Gwinn's idea of a generational flow. Not that following a Goddess wouldn't work, but it would remove the player one step from the narrative. By following several generations, the player is a little more likely to imagine themselves in the role of the general.

As I have written elsewhere, I really think the "role-playing" aspect of LA has not been fully realized yet. Britannicus is the closest yet, and probably the closest that can be achieved without structural changes to the LA engine allowing for more "Chose your own adventure" style decision-forks.

I think the beauty of Britannicus is in its minimal scale. Maybe the solution is to reduce the scale of what you are trying to do, adding more story detail into a smaller chronological tale.

[gwinn]

Well, odd you should say that, because I'm wrestling with just that issue, and my inability to resolve it thus far is the reason for my recent lack of progress.

The storytelling element you refer to was largely possible because Britannicus covers a large number of events within the lifetime of a single man.

The Rise of Carthage campaign as I currently have it outlined (I'm not done with storyboarding it yet) begins with Princess Alissar fleeing Tyre in 821 BC, and ends with the conclusion of the Pyrrhic War in 275 BC. No, I'm not including the Punic Wars. This is the Rise of Carthage, not the Fall of Carthage!

OK, so, you see my dilemma. How do I preserve that personal storytelling feeling over a tale that spans five and a half centuries?

There is one possible solution that occurred to me, though I mention it with some embarassment. I suppose I could employ the "conceit" (using that word in the poetic sense) that the player is the Princess Alissar herself, and after her death the spirit of the Princess Alissar, assigned by Baal and Astarte to guide and watch over the destiny of her people. As I say, I cringe a bit at the thought of trying to sell that one to a basically hard-nosed wargaming audience, but I'll be damned if I can come up with anything else that I like.

Even this approach has some pitfalls. How do I deal with the issue of Alissar's death? Virgil's version of her death rings horribly false for me, being based as it is on a strictly and unthinkingly patriarchal worldview, in which women were viewed as chattel, and "used goods" if abandoned by their man.

But Alissar, or Dido as Virgil called her, was the product of a female-centered religion which viewed women as the primary givers of life, and men as of lesser importance. A society shaped by such a religion views the departure of a man as little cause for serious concern.

In other words, the Princess Alissar that was, having been strong enough to escape her murderous brother, keep her large train of followers together through 7 years of wandering, and then successfully found a new city in the wilderness, was not about to kill herself in wailing despair because Aeneas wandered off to play with the Italians!

Hmmph. So much for Virgil

Anyhow, that's the storyline dilemma that's holding me up. The other roadblocks are all strictly mechanical issues, and I can deal with those.

I do see the dilemma.

I'm reluctant to poke my nose in here since you are the one doing the work! However, a couple of things occur to me

1. As I may have mentioned I like Britannicus a lot. However that does not mean that I didn't like the original Roman campaign in LA. If "The Rise of Carthage" spans over 500 years then it is more like LA's Roman Campaign and it may just be best to copy what that does, where the player just assumes command of each battle. That didn't bother me when I played it (and still doesn't). The plus points in Britannicus are more than just the central hero. The fact that the scenarios are individually more challenging, the fame and denarii awarded at each stage seemed less than in regular LA, and the fact that there is a coherent story line are also important and only the last of those depends on a single commander.

2. I actually quite like the idea of Alissa's spirit watching over the rise of her city. As for her death, well, given what the Romans thought of Carthage, I wouldn't feel too constrained by what Virgil wrote. You could make up a suitably heroic death vaguely modeled on whatever historical events fit. Of course, if Alissa "dies" during the campaign (as I guess she does) then it might be a challenge explaining that to a player who hasn't read this thread

3. Another slightly bizarre alternative occurs to me. Could you make the leader be different generations in a family line? If the scenarios in the campaign group together in blocks then you might be able to do something like ...

First 3 scenarios occur in a 5 year period so are led by Duke Harold (I'm not good with Carthaginian culture )

Next 4 occur 50 years later and are "led" by his grandson. You might need to introduce this with some preamble about him leading the army founded by his ancestor. And so on. It isn't quite as neat as Britannicus, and frankly I prefer the spirit of Alissa idea, but it is at least an alternative.

I hope that helps.

[kongming]

Not that you don't have anything better to do, but here are some other individuals that to me would make compelling campaigns focused on the exploits of individual leaders.

Marius
Sulla
Mithradates
Hannibal
Pompey (maybe too much ship battles)
Alexander
Vercingetorix
Trajan
Hadrian

[Redpossum]

Wow, kongming, those are some excellent ideas! I do thank you yet again for your praise. Nothing is so dear to the heart of a creative man as laudation for his efforts

As far as names, oh man oh man, the Carthaginians used the same 5 or 6 names over and over and over.

Basically, if you list the name Hamilcar, his son Hannibal, and then the other sons (Mago, Hanno, etc), you have listed the names of every prominent male Carthaginian that ever was.

Mind you, I'm not saying all the prominent Carthaginians were Barcas. In fact, house Barca only rose to prominence in the century preceding the First Punic War. I'm just saying the same 6 or 7 male first names appear to have been used by every prominent Carthaginian family that ever was.

This was probably because of the religious significance; for example, "Hannibal" means "The glory of Baal". Knowing what I do of the world and human nature, I'd guess nobody used those names except on formal occasions. I'm guessing they all went by nicknames that were as varied and original as our modern naming conventions.

[kongming]

Maybe your Carthage campaign could focus on the rise of a House as well as the rise of Carthage. Follow a family from its origins as humble soldiers to one of the great Houses of the nation. A fictional house following the historical trajectory of the city-state.

[kongming]

Possum, Am I correct that in this mod leader experience is awarded only based on actual kills. I think I recall correctly that in CofM leaders gained experience for the victory. My leader has been picking up one 1XP per campaign. I'm not babying him too much, but he is the critical victory condition so one can't go sending him into the fray unnecessarily.

Any chance of making future mods more like COM in this respect?