ECW Campaign 2017 Common Thread

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Kelen2
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Re: ECW Campaign 2017 Common Thread

Post by Kelen2 »

TheGrayMouser wrote:Can someone please explain to this old knight what forces I have available, my opponent forces , what type of battle, and what type of landscape?
The best I can determine is it will be attack versus defend, defenders( ianow's) choice of terrain, he gets reinforcements, I do not...

I am trying to understand the impudence of a foe outnumbered two to one and has the gall to receive reinforcements for both his battles, whereas one of the invaders must fight on unequal terms. Makes a combined strike seem more a liability than a benefit :) Regardless, we shall do our duty to the king but must protest his bizarre strategims.
I'm still confused how you're fighting him at all! Your move was from 14 to 6 to 7, and according to the arrows, Ianow was moving from 7 to 14. My understanding is was that you move out of 14 as he moves in and therefore avoid a battle. If anything I would have thought it would be Lascar fighting him on his way through to 2. Ianow would get Ulysisgrunt as a reinforcement, and Lascar would get both yourself and William (1080pts v 1730pts). When Lascar beat Ianow (assumption I know, but with those forces...) he would force him back into 7 where William would then get to fight a normal battle with both armies getting a reinforcement. If Ianow beat William then you'd get your shot at him!
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Re: ECW Campaign 2017 Common Thread

Post by GDod »

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Kelen2 wrote:
TheGrayMouser wrote:Can someone please explain to this old knight what forces I have available, my opponent forces , what type of battle, and what type of landscape?
The best I can determine is it will be attack versus defend, defenders( ianow's) choice of terrain, he gets reinforcements, I do not...

I am trying to understand the impudence of a foe outnumbered two to one and has the gall to receive reinforcements for both his battles, whereas one of the invaders must fight on unequal terms. Makes a combined strike seem more a liability than a benefit :) Regardless, we shall do our duty to the king but must protest his bizarre strategims.
I'm still confused how you're fighting him at all! Your move was from 14 to 6 to 7, and according to the arrows, Ianow was moving from 7 to 14. My understanding is was that you move out of 14 as he moves in and therefore avoid a battle. If anything I would have thought it would be Lascar fighting him on his way through to 2. Ianow would get Ulysisgrunt as a reinforcement, and Lascar would get both yourself and William (1080pts v 1730pts). When Lascar beat Ianow (assumption I know, but with those forces...) he would force him back into 7 where William would then get to fight a normal battle with both armies getting a reinforcement. If Ianow beat William then you'd get your shot at him!

? my understanding was TGM's move was from 14 to 6 to 7, and Ianiow's was moving from 6 to 14... all movement ceases on contact with opponent. Whether he looses or wins he must fight a second engagement with William. If he loses just one of the two engagements he must retreat and can only retreat to a friendly adjacent county [county 1 owned by Ulysisgrunt] but ultimately he loses his last county, so is eliminated. If he wins both engagements he remains in 6. He cannot be forced back to 7 as that is owned by lascar.
Last edited by GDod on Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: ECW Campaign 2017 Common Thread

Post by GDod »

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TheGrumpyDoge wrote:i ended up with 820 points??
Isn't that after your compulsory troops have been paid for?
GDod
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Re: ECW Campaign 2017 Common Thread

Post by GDod »

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TheGrayMouser wrote:Can someone please explain to this old knight what forces I have available, my opponent forces , what type of battle, and what type of landscape?
The best I can determine is it will be attack versus defend, defenders( ianow's) choice of terrain, he gets reinforcements, I do not...

I am trying to understand the impudence of a foe outnumbered two to one and has the gall to receive reinforcements for both his battles, whereas one of the invaders must fight on unequal terms. Makes a combined strike seem more a liability than a benefit :) Regardless, we shall do our duty to the king but must protest his bizarre strategims.
The situation
My understanding was TGM's move was from 14 to 6 to 7, and Ianiow's was moving from 6 to 14... all movement ceases on contact with opponent. Whether he looses or wins he must fight a second engagement with William. If he loses just one of the two engagements he must retreat and can only retreat to a friendly adjacent county [county 1 owned by Ulysisgrunt] but ultimately he loses his last county, so is eliminated. If he wins both engagements he remains in 6. He cannot be forced back to 7 as that is owned by lascar.

The Battle statistics for TGM vs Ianiow
Open battle (Reinforced battle does not apply as Ianiow was attacking into 14)
Terrain Agricultural

TGM = 1000pts + 150 pts (3 counties @ 50pts + home county @ 0pts) = 1150pts
Ianiow = 1000pts + 0 (home county only) =1000pts

1. Despite retiring last move to his home county you have the points advantage.
2. He must win both battles to remain in the game and retain his home county.
3. Both battles are not necessarily conducted simultaneously as a cycle is one entire season.
4. There is a chance Ianiow may survive but I fear the odds [rightly so] are against him


The Debate concerning reinforcing armies
The following point has been raised:- The rules [as they stand] only apply reinforcing battles to a faction who is stationary.
"Should this be changed to include two forces attacking into each others occupied county?"

If the answer is yes, how should this change the battle and should another attacking army from the same faction be regarded as reinforcing for the other friendly force?

I hope this helps.
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Re: ECW Campaign 2017 Common Thread

Post by youngr »

Victory for The King!!

In the Vale of Evesham, Worcesestershire, the Royalist forces of the Duke of Rutland followed up their defeat of the Parliamentarian force in the south Midlands. Well equipped due to our stout and reliable supply train :) , we were able to arm the hastily assembled militia with pikes, muskets and hot stew. The enemy were entrenched in the valley with hedged fields behind them. Our militia lined up facing the defences while the trained regiments formed up on the right. The cavalry was split between the two wings. The glorious Royalists forces marched forward in anticipation. Although the Roundhead regiments had more muskets, they were outnumbered. The cavalry were eager to engage the enemy...perhaps too eager as the enemy were well prepared on the Royalist left. The enemy artillery spat fire but it seemed they forgot to bring cannonballs. The Kings' trained regiments on the right, combined with mad charging cavalry, swept around the defences and overwhelmed the enemy. With losses mounting the Parliamentarians surrendered.

youngr: losses = 4%
LFDLM: losses = 47%

Duke of Rutland (Richard)
GDod
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Re: ECW Campaign 2017 Common Thread

Post by GDod »

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youngr wrote:Victory for The King!!

In the Vale of Evesham, Worcesestershire, the Royalist forces of the Duke of Rutland followed up their defeat of the Parliamentarian force in the south Midlands.

Duke of Rutland (Richard)
The King has granted The Youngr Richard, Duke of Rutland the twin titles of Guardian of the Vale and Royal Market Gardener.
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Re: ECW Campaign 2017 Common Thread

Post by youngr »

GDod wrote:
The Naki Bardman.jpg
youngr wrote:Victory for The King!!

In the Vale of Evesham, Worcesestershire, the Royalist forces of the Duke of Rutland followed up their defeat of the Parliamentarian force in the south Midlands.

Duke of Rutland (Richard)
The King has granted The Youngr Richard, Duke of Rutland the twin titles of Guardian of the Vale and Royal Market Gardener.
Hurrah!!
GDod
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Re: ECW Campaign 2017 Common Thread

Post by GDod »

GDod wrote: The King has granted The Youngr Richard, Duke of Rutland the twin titles of Guardian of the Vale and Royal Market Gardener.
I also guess you may now designate one unit of cavaliers as the 'Knights of the Vale' in your 'Game for the Throne' :evil:

PS Also...Check out the updated Turn 5 Summer preamble on page 2 and the Northern slaughter of innocent civilians in Bolton
Kelen2
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Re: ECW Campaign 2017 Common Thread

Post by Kelen2 »

"My understanding was TGM's move was from 14 to 6 to 7, and Ianiow's was moving from 6 to 14... all movement ceases on contact with opponent. Whether he looses or wins he must fight a second engagement with William. If he loses just one of the two engagements he must retreat and can only retreat to a friendly adjacent county [county 1 owned by Ulysisgrunt] but ultimately he loses his last county, so is eliminated. If he wins both engagements he remains in 6. He cannot be forced back to 7 as that is owned by lascar."

Apologies, was getting my '6' & '7' confused (thought TGM was actually moving from 14 to 7 then 6).

"The Debate concerning reinforcing armies
The following point has been raised:- The rules [as they stand] only apply reinforcing battles to a faction who is stationary.
"Should this be changed to include two forces attacking into each others occupied county?"


If the answer is yes, how should this change the battle and should another attacking army from the same faction be regarded as reinforcing for the other friendly force?"


I'm assuming we're talking about armies with limited movement due to losing 25% the previous turn.

I think the 'cannot reinforce' would only apply to a battle occurring in an adjacent county, i.e. the fact that they have limited movement means that as they can only move 1 county they don't have the mobility to send off a seperate force into county No 2. Where 2 friendly forces are attacking into the same county though it makes sense (to me) that as they would be fighting their own battle anyway, that they can reinforce (think Blucher at Waterloo after losing at Ligny).
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Re: ECW Campaign 2017 Common Thread

Post by GDod »

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The Debate concerning reinforcing armies
The following point has been raised:- The rules [as they stand] only apply reinforcing battles to a faction who is stationary.
"Should this be changed to include two forces attacking into each others occupied county?"

If the answer is yes, how should this change the battle and should another attacking army from the same faction be regarded as reinforcing for the other friendly force?"
I'm assuming we're talking about armies with limited movement due to losing 25% the previous turn.
No, Kelen rereading the rules only stationary armies that have not moved by choice that cycle can have a reinforcing battle. Two armies advancing are always open battle and reinforcing has not effect. Maybe in this case, each reinforcing army should be 50pts extra for the faction.

As to reinforcing when two armies are attacking into a county, I kind of agree because as you state
here 2 friendly forces are attacking into the same county though it makes sense (to me) that as they would be fighting their own battle anyway, that they can reinforce (think Blucher at Waterloo after losing at Ligny).
but then again the counter argument is, as I have stated, that a move is over a season and the battles may have been fought on different weeks and places in the county
Kelen2
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Re: ECW Campaign 2017 Common Thread

Post by Kelen2 »

OK now I'm really confused, because the rules as posted on 6th August also said;

"Reinforcing Battles
When a faction has more than one attack into a county, all other attacking forces count as reinforcing."


I just assumed (possibly incorrectly) that the 'a' & 'b' conditions were there just to indicate as to either it was an open battle, or if attack/defend who got the reinforcements, and how. I may be wrong, but I think this is how we've been playing the campaign so far, with armies receiving reinforcements even if both they and the reinforcing army have moved. See battle instructions 26th June;

"County 6 Middlesex
Danny for Parliament (Ian reinforcing) TGM for King with (Lascar reinforcing) = no bonus.open battle

Border of County 21 and 17
Awesum for Royalist,(Kingi reinforcing) , Kerry for Parliament (Ian reinforcing ) = Kerry reinforcing bonus, open battle"


Or have I misunderstood the question again :?
awesum4
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Re: ECW Campaign 2017 Common Thread

Post by awesum4 »

Greetings,

I have always liked to keep things simple. Maybe because I only have a simple mind.

The way I've always understood it is that an army that moved at all in a season cannot defend, so most battles are open battles.

If a battle is fought and there is a friendly army in an adjacent county which is not engaged itself in a battle that season then it will supply reinforcements to the battle. If two friendly armies move into the same county (in the same phase) then only the larger actually moves. With the situation under discussion I would have thought that as TGM has the larger army he moves in and fights a battle with William reinforcing him. Fighting two battles in a single season seems silly to me unless the second battle is fought with what remains after the first battle.

Andre
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Re: ECW Campaign 2017 Common Thread

Post by GDod »

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awesum4 wrote:Greetings,

I have always liked to keep things simple. Maybe because I only have a simple mind.

The way I've always understood it is that an army that moved at all in a season cannot defend, so most battles are open battles.

If a battle is fought and there is a friendly army in an adjacent county which is not engaged itself in a battle that season then it will supply reinforcements to the battle. If two friendly armies move into the same county (in the same phase) then only the larger actually moves. With the situation under discussion I would have thought that as TGM has the larger army he moves in and fights a battle with William reinforcing him. Fighting two battles in a single season seems silly to me unless the second battle is fought with what remains after the first battle.

Andre
Spot on Andre', the problem was allowing William to move to 14. Luckily the battle with TGM resolved the issue anyway. so all's good. The only question remaining is whetehr to allow reinforcements for open battles, and for the sake of the campaign we need to keep the understandings as they are. The inclusion of modified movement has complicated the rules but I think they are now workable in their current form at least.
Herding Wargamers is like herding sheep without a dog. So, since there is less desire to keep playtesting and with Doley throwing in the towel, LFDM out as is Ianiow I feel the GRand Experiment is over. I think I can say this season has now resolved the campaign with a Parliamentary victory in the North, and London under siege. Nevertheless, I think we'll let the Civil War wrap up after this season and declare a moral victory to the Royalists at the cost of York!

Thank you for everyone's patience and participation.I'll ensure the history is completed for this season then

Exit stage right...
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Re: ECW Campaign 2017 Common Thread

Post by GDod »

Kelen2 wrote:OK now I'm really confused, because the rules as posted on 6th August also said;

Yes, this applies to reinforcing battles "Reinforcing Battles
When a faction has more than one attack into a county, all other attacking forces count as reinforcing."


I just assumed (possibly incorrectly) that the 'a' & 'b' conditions were there just to indicate as to either it was an open battle, or if attack/defend who got the reinforcements, and how. I may be wrong, but I think this is how we've been playing the campaign so far, with armies receiving reinforcements even if both they and the reinforcing army have moved. See battle instructions 26th June;

"County 6 Middlesex
Danny for Parliament (Ian reinforcing) TGM for King with (Lascar reinforcing) = no bonus.open battle

Border of County 21 and 17
Awesum for Royalist,(Kingi reinforcing) , Kerry for Parliament (Ian reinforcing ) = Kerry reinforcing bonus, open battle"


Or have I misunderstood the question again :?
Examples quoted: County 6 Middlesex
Danny for Parliament (Ian reinforcing) TGM for King with (Lascar reinforcing) = no bonus.open battle
order of County 21 and 17
Awesum for Royalist,(Kingi reinforcing) , Kerry for Parliament (Ian reinforcing ) = Kerry reinforcing bonus, open battle"[/color]
Just totaling the reinforcing from adjacent counties. Then I documented whether an open battle [in which case reinforcing has no effect] or a reinforcing battle [in which case reinforcing would have had an effect]... On reflection I should have really decided the last part first, which would have made my first calculation unnecessary.
Last edited by GDod on Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ECW Campaign 2017 Common Thread

Post by ulysisgrunt »

Many thanks for running this; please keep me in find for the future.....
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Kelen2
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Re: ECW Campaign 2017 Common Thread

Post by Kelen2 »

"Just totaling the reinforcing from adjacent counties. Then I documented whether an open battle [in which case reinforcing has no effect] or a reinforcing battle [in which case reinforcing would have had an effect]... On reflection I should have really decided the last part first, which would have made my first calculation unnecessary."

Ah, ok. In which case, going back to your original question,

"The rules [as they stand] only apply reinforcing battles to a faction who is stationary. Should this be changed to include two forces attacking into each others occupied county?"

I think no. As you say the turn is 3 months long and therefore even though moves appear to be happening at the same time they could be day or week apart.


Shame we're having to wrap this one up before 'we' won! But looking forward to the next one (hopefully very soon!) Cheers again for all your hard work.
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Re: ECW Campaign 2017 Common Thread

Post by youngr »

GDod wrote:
GDod wrote: The King has granted The Youngr Richard, Duke of Rutland the twin titles of Guardian of the Vale and Royal Market Gardener.
I also guess you may now designate one unit of cavaliers as the 'Knights of the Vale' in your 'Game for the Throne' :evil:

PS Also...Check out the updated Turn 5 Summer preamble on page 2 and the Northern slaughter of innocent civilians in Bolton
:lol:
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Re: ECW Campaign 2017 Common Thread

Post by GDod »

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Kelen2 wrote:"J

Shame we're having to wrap this one up before 'we' won! But looking forward to the next one (hopefully very soon!) Cheers again for all your hard work.


Towards the end of the year maybe Kelen,

In the meantime I'll be working on
The idea
1. Refining the map admin and processing so all information can be directly inputed by each player into a spreadsheet that enables a map to be automatically updated before posting in the thread. I'll be spending time working on the formula's
but here's some thoughts:-
2. I'll make it individual without factions
3. Based in Europe on players national preferences.
4. Players will be able to enter their own moves
4. Players will be able to enter their own % losses as a result of engagements to update army totals
5. Players will be able to enter their own replacements and recruitment (just enter the county numbers you own and the formulae will total the predefined county points and add these to your army and to your militia point pool)
6. Players will then be able to allocate militia points to different counties (just enter the county number you own and the points you wish to allocate (this will update the map details)

But as awesum suggests, First, I'll carefully review what we have already, simplify even further where I can. Any simple additions or suggestions are welcome Guys.

Least I now have workable basic movement, ownership, and rules of engagement established. The delivery of a automated multi-player campaign will take me some time and I'll need to call in some old favours from my spreadsheet/report producing wizz's.
Just think of this campaign as a small step for wargamers but a giant leap for wargaming kind!
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Re: ECW Campaign 2017 Common Thread

Post by awesum4 »

Gavin,

thank you for all the work you have done on this campaign. I've really enjoyed it, although I have failed miserably at the battles (Cornishmen always have less than half of the muskets the enemy has, and Kerry loves using massed musketry), and been frustrated when some people didn't put in moves at critical times.

Some suggestions.....use 30 years war armies...lots of variety but the armies appear well balanced, even the weird ones like transylvanians.

Personally I like the idea of two sides battling it out, campaigns where everyone is an individual tend to end up like Risk, once one player gets big the others work against him, you don't get a decisive result. But allow the sides to have an overall commander who players can (if they wish) allow to move the armies and the players fight the battles. Some of us enjoy the strategic stuff, others just want to kill things.

I would avoid having garrisons dotted around the place, keep the economics simple, 1,000 points for your first area, 50 for each additional area. Divisions getting a bonus was brilliant.
How would garrisons work? Can 50 points somewhere really delay 1,200 points, if so for how long.....it just gets messy.

Just my thoughts.....who ever runs the campaign has ultimate choice.

I look forward to the next one,

Andre
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Re: ECW Campaign 2017 Common Thread

Post by w_michael »

I guess that I arrived at the "last call", but having one battle is better than none. I think that you have done an excellent job working out the details of a campaign.

I created an ECW campaign map, using freeware AutoREALM, based on the board game Unhappy King Charles. I was working on a campaign system (I called Cocked Pistol) for fighting the battles with miniatures, but it is incomplete. The map uses a point-to-point movement system rather than area (county) movement. The map has a lot of details that I would strip out for a much more simple campaign system. Each map element is an object, which can be dragged to a new location, copied, or even the colour changed. It makes annotating the campaign easy and clear. If anyone wants to play around with the map then I would be happy to give them the AutoREALM file that I made.

Attached is the map I created:
Sample ECW Campaign Map
Sample ECW Campaign Map
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