AI Ambushing

[Ryujin]

One thing I noticed is that it seems the VC could do a better job of ambushing your logistics/high traffic areas. Usually in my games so far I end up doing a lot of repeated actions, especially in logistics, that the AI doesn't take advantage of. For example I often have quite a few choppers shuttling troops and ammo between my main base and fire base almost every turn across a stretch of uncontrolled jungle. Sometimes it seems like the AI will happen to place an ambush on a high traffic area by accident. But usually I don't have to defend supply lines that much unless they pass right by a village, especially using helicopters. But for the VC, that's seems like the best spots to hit. If the AI aggressively ambushed a high traffic area like a chopper path between bases, it would probably up the difficulty quite a bit and disrupt logistics/cause you to have to draw away units to secure that area.

I was thinking off the top of my head that something like a heat map for player movement could give the VC some more context for their ambushes. Much like how the player tries to predict the VC, the VC could probably do the same to hit players who always approach villages in a similar way and hit supply lines. The idea would be similar to heat maps for fps games, just have a data structure for all the hexs and up a counter for that hex every time the player moves over it (and you could track more specific info like unit type and decay the value over time if it's unused). Highly trafficked areas would become "hot" and the AI could be weighted towards choosing hotter areas for ambushes *most* of the time.

So if you say always fly the direct route to a village and disembark north of the village and walk in, over time you'd find it more likely the something would be waiting for you along that path and you could be flying into RPGs. Right now it *feels* like ambushes/mines tend to mostly be in the immediate area of the village or random-ish along roads. Effectiveness seems to be kind of hit or miss. I think upping the effectiveness of ambushes would be a more interesting than just upping the number of VC. It might make the VC threat more asymmetric and interesting and would reward you for adapting.

[Every Single Soldier]

I like this a lot, we have discussed this but I think it dropped off the radar, as a minimum the AI should target the direct routes between the bases, as now they do target roads and village locations , Thanks

[Mylo42]

.....but, were regular flight paths by helicopters on resupply missions REALLY effected that much in the actual war ? Were the NVA mobile enough with an effective AA response to make that much of a difference, to warrant inclusion into the game ? Are we expecting that a Battalion of VC gathered flight path intel, are going mobilize a bunch of troops to line up on a flight path and pour small arms fire up at helicopters ? I just dont know if it was that much of a threat. Ground convoys, that's a different story.

Having said all that, helicopters LANDING at the same spot repeatedly, I would expect, increase the risk of being ambushed IF there is no security force.

My concern would be the need to micro manage my supply routes, changing them a hex here, a hex there, could get bogged down and cumbersome quickly. I would think that a security unit at the landing spot (the unit being resupplied), would be sufficient to prevent the supply heli from being ambushed.

Myles

[Every Single Soldier]

Firstly remember this is an abstract game, used a bit of poetic license to make the game playable, fun and reasonably accurate, the fact that helos get shot at is essentially to restrict US mobility, otherwise the player would romp around the map unhindered , same with mine placements.

Definitely don't want to micro manage helos and their flight paths, save that for Huey'65

In general the helos follow roads as they are (or should be) secured by the player.

[Mylo42]

I appreciate that the Realism/Playability slider leans more towards playability, I agree with this approach.

....but

In this instance, I think that both realism and playability are achieved by it being a pretty rare event that a supply helicopter would receive significant damage in an ambush along its flight path. If you ask me, the US forces SHOULD be able to romp around the map in helicopters unhindered (if they have the range/fuel to do it) while shuttling troops/supplies, this being fairly real and playable. A hot LZ, thats different and perhaps can, and should, be modelled, but a flight path ?? An NVA AA battery, maybe could happen in game, but I'm thinking that it would be pretty rare.

[Every Single Soldier]

At the end of the day, it all came down to balance and that was by far the hardest task of the lot !

[Javigato]

Hello! Just started playing this game, almost no experience with war gaming of this kind, but loving it so far!!

I do like the suggestion of hot LZs rather than RPGs on the flight path of the Hueys. Also when transporting troops, on an attack to the helo, the troops don't get hit, where in a hot LZ model, both helo and troops could be hit. Anyway, I think it would add to immersion.

Also, quick question, say I am playing game 1, and H&M is at 51, if I am at game 2, at the same level, do I always get the same level of enemy activity? If so, I think it would be cool to have some randomness also, so in some games enemy activity is more elevated than others, regardless of my progress (or lack thereof).

[Every Single Soldier]

At the centre of the game is the HM score, this amongst other things represents the % chance of more missions being spawned by the enemy, so no two games will be the same, not to mention the random terrain

[Ryujin]

I agree hot LZs would be preferable to vc taking out choppers mid flight, but not as easy in the current mechanics. I don't think the AI can actually ambush you on your turn as you land to resupply a unit or really get that close. That might require a few changes.

But I think it might be possible to make the choppers safer without breaking balance if they weren't (what seems to be) so over powered. Right now you have a lot of choppers on hand, they carry as much supplies/troops as ground units, and can easily resupply units even in deep jungle. Mostly untouchable choppers might be tricky to balance without making the supply system more nuanced, which might be a bad thing for micro management. But maybe cost and boosting ground unit capacities might help.

Also was it really that common for choppers to be able to fully resupply units in deep jungle? I guess they could lower supplies into the jungle, but that seems tricky. Removing or limiting that capability might already make them not quite as logistically powerful, but might really change fighting in deep jungle as you'd need to find/clear LZs or have ground supply.

Not necessarily a bad thing as I'm all for making jungle a very serious obstacle.

[Mylo42]

Some sort of Hot LZ is a must in any Vietnam wargame.

[Every Single Soldier]

Have had a discussion with the team on the matter, agree on hot LZ and AI that targets regular traffic routes , thanks

[Javigato]

Here's something I thought would be cool as far AI Ambushing goes. Not sure if it is doable, or how it would affect the balance of the game. Anyway, maybe on some villages when you visit it for info, you can sometimes get false intel, so when they say "they set up an ambush over there" the ambush is actually set up on a different hex on the path, but not where the VC is shown. So, if you send an air strike, or artillery, it is wasted attacking "nothing". If you send troops, they get ambush on the way, or if you send the gunship it can be ambushed by an RPG if flown in the path of the actual ambush site.

Just a thought, not sure if its "realistic" and it did actually happen during the war, but it would add an element of surprise for sure.

[Every Single Soldier]

Good point, we have been discussing a deeper intel conversation with villages, in which we are considering maybe giving a more general picture of where the enemy is and where they are moving to etc, the issue of false information was also discussed, once again based on the HM score, cos as we know intel is never 100% like currently in the game

This issue is receiving a lot of attention in the Afghanistan adaption and the learnings will be folded into V'66

[Mylo42]

Some pre game determined randomness of villiage intel reliabiliby, with a reliability "slider" that moves closer to the "more reliable" the longer the villiage is under US control, and vice versa for NVA control ? The more villiages that report the same intel, the more likely it is to be reliable ? In any event, cool concept.

[Every Single Soldier]

I like the idea of the reliability slider, thanks

[JOEDEG]

.....but, were regular flight paths by helicopters on resupply missions REALLY effected that much in the actual war ? Were the NVA mobile enough with an effective AA response to make that much of a difference, to warrant inclusion into the game ? Are we expecting that a Battalion of VC gathered flight path intel, are going mobilize a bunch of troops to line up on a flight path and pour small arms fire up at helicopters ? I just dont know if it was that much of a threat. Ground convoys, that's a different story.

Having said all that, helicopters LANDING at the same spot repeatedly, I would expect, increase the risk of being ambushed IF there is no security force.

My concern would be the need to micro manage my supply routes, changing them a hex here, a hex there, could get bogged down and cumbersome quickly. I would think that a security unit at the landing spot (the unit being resupplied), would be sufficient to prevent the supply heli from being ambushed.

Myles

I DON't remember, inside SVN, NVA AA being a real issue mid route. Repeated use of an LZ was plain stupid. When the ARVN w/101st support went into Laos in 1971 NVA AA was shooting our birds down mid route.

[Every Single Soldier]

We are currently exploring a deeper 'Intel conversation' between the local population and the U.S./ARVN, quite a challenge to model but we are on it, any suggestions are most welcome