Converting FOGR army lists to Pike and Shot

Moderators: rbodleyscott, Slitherine Core, Gothic Labs

Post Reply
rbodleyscott
Field of Glory 2
Field of Glory 2
Posts: 28014
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:25 pm

Converting FOGR army lists to Pike and Shot

Post by rbodleyscott »

Jomni asked me some questions on this topic in a PM. I am reposting my replies here in case anyone else is interested.
jomni wrote:
Also with regard to Experience and Elan. the rule of thumb is

Civilians 0
Raw 50
Regulars 100
Veterans 200
Ultimate Elite 300

though there are many shades in between - and the experience and elan are not, of course, always equal.

Troop Quality is the average of the Experience and Elan.

The way the game reports Quality partly depends on whether the Experience and Elan are equal:

If quality is in the range 0-40 then if Elan is less than Experience the game reports "Demoralised", otherwise "Untrained".

If quality is in the range 41-60 then if Elan is less than Experience the game reports "Disheartened", otherwise "Raw".

If quality is in the range 61-90 the game reports "Below Average".

If quality is in the range 91-110 the game reports "Average".

If quality is in the range 111-159 the game reports "Above Average."

If quality is in the range 160-210 the game reports "Superior".

If quality is in the range 211-249 the game reports "Highly Superior".

If quality is in the range 250-300 the game reports "Elite".
1) I am looking at the FOGR Asian army lists and it only shows Elite, Superior, Average, Poor. What is an equivalent for Poor? I am inclined to use Raw.
That is what is intended, except for Mob who are Civilians.
2) Also I will assume the bases are equivalent 100 men. Is this alright? Or should I be lowering the count for missile troops and cavalry, but I fear it will change the balance.
First please note that the FOGR lists (despite the vaguely given representational scale in the rules) were not written on the assumption that all bases have equal numbers of men. They were written on the assumption that the number of men in a base is proportional depending on the troop type. The ratio is Heavy Foot/Medium Foot/Warriors 4: Cavalry 3: Light Foot and Light Horse 2.

1 FOGR base = 100 UnitSize in the game, except for light foot and light horse, where 1 FOGR base = 50 UnitSize in the game.

The number of men in 100 UnitSize is non linear in the game, depending on the size of the unit. This was mainly done to accommodate the very large keils and tercios, so you don't need to stick to it.

Infantry:
Units of 600 UnitSize or less - 100 UnitSize = 83.333 men approx.
Units of 1000 UnitSize - 100 UnitSize = 100 men.
Units of 1600 UnitSize - 100 UnitSize = 125 men.

Cavalry:
Units of 400 UnitSize or less - 100 UnitSize = 62.5 men approx.
Units of 600 UnitSize - 100 UnitSize = 66.666 men
3) Finally when creating the army list, what's a nice way to convert the FOG points in to P&S points. The army list in the game is for a 2000pt Large battle by default right? I would suppose a typical FOGR army is for a medium battle.
The points system is basically the same as FOGR except where I have adjusted it to balance the troops according to their slightly different value in Pike and Shot. e.g. Cavalry cannot evade in Pike & Shot, so use the same points values as Horse, rather than the FOGR points values. (Although the FOGR points system itself could do with a bit of rebalancing, and I have taken the opportunity to do this rebalancing in P&S).

A typical tournament doubles FOGR army is 900 points, at least 140 of which would normally be spent on generals, so let's say 750 points. A Medium MP army is 1200 points.

For the army list, which is intended for 2000 point armies, and is automatically adjusted by the game for smaller or larger armies, I aim for the total maxima to add up to between 2500 and 3000 points (3500 if the FOGR list contains large variety of choices). There should not be less than 2500, even for simple armies, otherwise there will be insufficient choice.

Generally speaking I start by multiplying the available "bases" (UnitSize) of each type in the FOGR list by 3/2 and then adjust the non-rare types (usually upwards) to fit these totals. (Remembering to halve the "Bases" for light foot and light horse).
Richard Bodley Scott

Image
Athos1660
Major-General - Elite Tiger I
Major-General - Elite Tiger I
Posts: 2561
Joined: Wed May 29, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: Converting FOGR army lists to Pike and Shot

Post by Athos1660 »

I currently convert FoGR Early 17th century French (Wars of religion) to P&S.

I have a question about the Enfants perdus. If I have understood correctly, they are unarmoured Light Foot, with no other capability than Musket or Arquebus. And they come in three versions :
  • Enfants perdus before 1623 : Average, Arquebus, 150-250 men (?) (cost 24-36)
  • Enfants perdus from 1623 : Average, Musket, 150-250 men (?) (cost 28-42)
  • Enfants perdus from 1623 : Superior, Musket, 150 men (?) (cost 40)
In FoGR Wars of religion, Light foot are rare : some Miquelets and Skirmishing shot in very few armies, such as the Confederate Irish.

In P&S, detached Musketeers (250 men, cost : 31) and Skirmish Arquebusiers (400 men, cost : 36) are common in many Armies of the first half of the 17th century.

There seems to be no difference between P&S Light foot and FoGR Enfants perdus, except the Enfants are more expensive (and can be Superior from 1623). Am I wrong ?

To add FoGR Enfants perdus to PéS, should I :
  • just rename the French detached Musketeers as 'Enfants perdus' (250 men at the cost of 31?) and create a Superior version (150 men at the cost of 40) ?
  • or implement the FoG versions of Enfants and remove Light Foot from the other armies that don’t have them in FoGR Wars of Religion (such as the Spanish 1621-1634) ? (My favorite option.)
  • or keep Light Foot in any armies while renaming the French detached Musketeers as 'Enfants perdus' (250 men at the cost of 31?), creating a Superior version (150 men at the cost of 40) and giving them an additional capability, such as 1% bomb (for the Cohesion test), to make them special ?
  • ???
Thank you for your attention :-)
rbodleyscott
Field of Glory 2
Field of Glory 2
Posts: 28014
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:25 pm

Re: Converting FOGR army lists to Pike and Shot

Post by rbodleyscott »

Well of course it is up to you. If it was up to me, I would pick the first of the options.
Richard Bodley Scott

Image
Athos1660
Major-General - Elite Tiger I
Major-General - Elite Tiger I
Posts: 2561
Joined: Wed May 29, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: Converting FOGR army lists to Pike and Shot

Post by Athos1660 »

Thank you for the advice! Of course I will follow it :-)

(Removing units/decreasing diversity in an army (option 2) was a bad idea. I've just tested it!)
Athos1660
Major-General - Elite Tiger I
Major-General - Elite Tiger I
Posts: 2561
Joined: Wed May 29, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: Converting FOGR army lists to Pike and Shot

Post by Athos1660 »

Adding units to P&S and modifying some to mod the French 1623-1634, I had to figure out their costs.
Hoping they fit in with the P&S points system.
If so, also hoping it may help others.

1) Enfants perdus :
in-game : Detached musketeers (Light foot, Unarmoured, Average, Musket, 250 men), cost : 31
Added (proportional cost) :
  • Light foot, Unarmoured, Superior, Musket, 150 men, cost = 29
  • Light foot, Unarmoured, Average, Musket, 200 men, cost = 26
  • Light foot, Unarmoured, Average, Musket, 150 men, cost = 21
2) Mounted Arquebusiers ('hussars') :
in-game : Mounted Arquebusiers without Melee pistol, cost = 36
Added : Mounted Arquebusiers with Melee pistol, cost = 44

3) Arquebusiers
in-game : Arquebusiers, some men armoured, cost = 40
Added Arquebusiers :
  • Unarmoured = 36
  • Armoured = 44
3) Average Horse with pistols :
in-game : Armoured, cost = 40
Added : Unarmoured, cost = 32

4) French P&S
(Armour added to pikemen, +2 points)
  • French P&S : new cost = 44
  • P&S : new cost = 44
  • Veteran P&S : new cost = 62
(unarmoured Raw P&S : 30, cost unchanged)

5) Kuirassiers
in-game : Veteran, cost = 72
Added : Average, cost = 56

6) Dragoons
in-game Dragoons with muskets (cost = 24) replaced by Vanilla Early Dragoons with Arquebus (cost = 21).

A merry end of year to all :-)

(edit) cost of the Enfants perdus 'superior' updated
Athos1660
Major-General - Elite Tiger I
Major-General - Elite Tiger I
Posts: 2561
Joined: Wed May 29, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: Converting FOGR army lists to Pike and Shot

Post by Athos1660 »

Athos1660 wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:52 am To add FoGR Enfants perdus to P&S, should I :
(...) create the Superior version (150 men at the cost of 40) ?
btw I lowered the cost of the "converted" Superior 150 men LF.
40 was the old cost from the FoG:R tabletop game (the updated one being 36).
But 250 Average Detached musketeers cost only 31 in P&S (42 in FoG:R).
So I guess 150 Average Detached musketeers would cost only 18 or 19 in P&S.

In FoGR , the Points per base for :
- Average LF are 7
- Superior ones are between 9 (new cost) and 10 (old one).
So I guess that a better cost for Superior 150 men LF in P&S could be something between 24 and 27, not 40 (?).

À la louche :-)

As a reminder, 150 Average Commanded Shot (with their "Protected" skill) cost 24 in P&S.
Athos1660
Major-General - Elite Tiger I
Major-General - Elite Tiger I
Posts: 2561
Joined: Wed May 29, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: Converting FOGR army lists to Pike and Shot

Post by Athos1660 »

As a Superior 150 men Detached musketeer unit does not provide much firepower, I also thought of replacing this unit with a much expensive Superior 250 men Detached musketeer unit.

In that case, at short range, if the unit has not moved or turned, the Superior unit can not only trigger a cohesion test like the Average 250 Detached Musketeers (by causing more than 5% casualties), but in that case, a -1 modifier may apply in addition (if casualties > 8%).

For example, max casualties against an enemy P&S (500 men) at short range :
- Superior 150 Detached Musketeers : 27 (5,4 %) => CT (1)
- Average 250 Detached Musketeers : 36 (7,2 %) => CT
- Superior 250 Detached Musketeers : 42 (8,4 %) => CT with -1 modifier


NB : my initial idea was to add the Superior LF of the tabletop game to their Armies in P&S : Early 17th cent. French, Early TYW German Catholic, Later TYW German and TYW Transylvanian.

(edit)
If I am not mistaken, converting the units of the tabletop game :
- Commanded shot of Fog:R have the equivalent of about 75 men
- Superior LF of Fog:R have 150 men
- Average LF of Fog:R have 150-250 men

______

(1) So even the Superior 150 Detached Musketeers have a small chance to trigger a CT !
Post Reply

Return to “Modders Corner”