Battle for Seelow Heights... Road to Berlin

[morge4]

7. Following an interesting idea by Justin, am toying with the idea of reducing movement points for trucks (to make it harder/slower for Germans to shift their 88s around). Any thoughts in favour or against?

The thing with this is the Soviets can do the same thing with their trucks to ferry infantry quicker to the front. cross the bridge using about 2/3 their points and then move back to grab another infantry unit...

So, if you reduce one side, to make it a bit fair, I would say do the same for Soviet or just leave it as is...

[GottaLove88s]

7. Following an interesting idea by Justin, am toying with the idea of reducing movement points for trucks (to make it harder/slower for Germans to shift their 88s around). Any thoughts in favour or against?

The thing with this is the Soviets can do the same thing with their trucks to ferry infantry quicker to the front. cross the bridge using about 2/3 their points and then move back to grab another infantry unit...

So, if you reduce one side, to make it a bit fair, I would say do the same for Soviet or just leave it as is...

Good point Al. Trucks are darned useful to the Reds. But am hating how I can get 8 infantrymen to within 2 spaces of an 88 battery, to watch it whipped away and re-sited by a 251, so it's still popping my T34s the very next turn. Given the timescales, I'm tempted to make trucks a little bit slower... which shouldn't hurt the Russians too much... but I could also rip up some of the far too helpful tracks, and add a little mud to the German lines... which would soften excessive abuse of making 88s as easy to deploy as tanks...

Could also add a delay to 88 move and fire... So if an 88 gets moved, it can't fire the very next turn (kinda simulating a setup time)... My game against P-A might have gone very differently if I'd been handicapped by that rule...

[GottaLove88s]

Hi there
What I was really trying to suggest in my cryptic abbreviated in-game messaging was to perhaps create a new prime mover vehicle for the Germans.
Something with a bit of armor like other halftracks have but without any weaponry on them. And then give them a slower movement speed to represent lugging heavy things around. The SDKFZ-7 is what I had in mind:

The benefit of this is that you get a third category of transport to diddle with in the scenarios to balance things, and you leave trucks and halftracks alone as they are - everyone expects what their current behavior already is, so changing them could be too far off the main game mechanics?

Now...the con of this move is obvious =) Someone has to model the darn thing and create the unit info!

Hmmm, intriguing Justin. Yes, would be cool to have more transport options... It looks like the German evolutionary tree for halftracks started with the Kfz 6, 7, 8, evolved through the 11, and on up to the 250 series (does this sound like BMWs anyone? )

Would be nice to have something tougher and more mobile over rough terrain than a truck, but unarmored and unarmed, so not quite a full 251... Digging around, I see these fellas certainly pulled some big stuff (Kfz 8 below, I think)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sd.Kfz._11

[GottaLove88s]

Any other thoughts on Seelow Heights 1.0b? Am guessing we're nearly there for a few games now...

Ok, I'm biased, but here's my tuppence worth...

I like the size and variation of the map. I like that there's plenty of places to hide and sneak through. I like the scouts and genuine recon cars (but I need to tone down the German para scouts back to regular ones). I love the ZiS3 battery (but I need to massively tone down the effect of the German 120mm mortars... Both Justin and P-A have taken out upto 4 fully healthy, full staffed units in forest with * single * mortar shots). I like the smoke...

Force variation feels very playable (although the Germans should get less free stuff, and far fewer elites)... And, of course, I need to find a way to restrict the German arty/airstrike target zones to stay west of the Oder bridges... I could slow down transports, but meanwhile I'll rip up some roads and throw down some mud, near the German trench lines, to soften the ability of 88s to relocate too easily...

Let me know if you'd like anything else? Will try to update and upload in the next 48 hours...

[glenghiscan]

I'm 3 rounds into a mirror game with morge so far so good ! This is looking like a map with many different out comes depending on the ability of the players another top notch map I'm thinking ! You'll be giving cave hobbit some competition for the master of map makers ! Do you think you'll be making this/these maps into a tourney ?

[morge4]

My games so far are going well. Wold maybe like to see a few JS1's for the soviets (platoon of 3?). This late in the war they had a few and they would counter some of the German Heavy armor also.

Good with the idea of toning down the 120mm...maybe uping the 76mm Zis abit?

[GottaLove88s]

My games so far are going well. Wold maybe like to see a few JS1's for the soviets (platoon of 3?). This late in the war they had a few and they would counter some of the German Heavy armor also.

Good with the idea of toning down the 120mm...maybe uping the 76mm Zis abit?

Hmmm... Okay Al, have done some more digging around and found this on http://www.historynet.com/battle-of-the ... eights.htm... The SS men destroyed more than a dozen T-34s and a JS-1 heavy tank, then crawled under them for protection. At about 0645 the barrage was lifted, and the bulk of the Soviet armor raced forward to take advantage of the confusion. They ran right into a German artillery barrage, called in as soon as the Soviet artillery stopped. Soviet tanks and infantry were shredded by the creeping fire. Konev saw 30 percent of his unit's total strength die on the vine in front of his eyes.

On that evidence, I'm happy to swap out 1 or 2 T34s to bring in 1 or 2 JS-1s. Have softened the German 120mm mortars to 82mm version. Am looking into comparing INDIRECT fire stats to be sure that the German 82mm and the Soviet ZiS3 aren't wildly different on bombard effect/accuracy...

Hope to have new version uploaded within 48 hours...

[GottaLove88s]

I'm 3 rounds into a mirror game with morge so far so good ! This is looking like a map with many different out comes depending on the ability of the players another top notch map I'm thinking ! You'll be giving cave hobbit some competition for the master of map makers ! Do you think you'll be making this/these maps into a tourney ?

Thanks Glenghis, that's kind words indeed! But nobody can touch P-A for the beauty of his maps. It's in his Scandinavian genes... But I'll try to match up as close as I can...

Would love to turn Seelow Heights into a full Vistula to Berlin 'manyplayer' campaign, but need to see how much time this one takes to do right... and figure out what I need to do, so you folks actually enjoy playing 'em... So thank you mate. You make it worth the effort!!

[cavehobbit]

1. Don't bother with the southern forest. A solid line of German infantry can make mincemeat of any Russian assault that route. Especially if they're supported by mortars

Maybe open up the trenches at 2-3 places to allow Soviet armour to attack not only at the flanks and in the middle.

2. On mortars, 120mm German mortars are too strong. (Will reduce these to 82mm for v1.1)

Agree.

3. German para scouts' submachine guns are too strong (I will switch these back to regular scouts for v1.1)

Agree. You could reduce the combat stats for scouts as well. Let scouts be scouts, not small fighting units. Remove AT capability from scouts.
Maybe you should reduce ScoutRange and CoverLOS for the T-70 and the German scout car. They are nearly as good as infantry scouts.

4. There are too many German supertanks (Kingtigers, Tigers, Jagdpanthers). It's easy to take out 1 or 2 of these, but a whole lagerfull isn't happening (I will reduce the free tanks, and reduce German force points)

5. German tanks and 88s have too many shots. Even with overwhelming numbers, it's impossible for the Russians to overwhelm them (I will demote these back to 2 stripes. They can earn that third stripe in battle)

Yes, reduce German force points and reduce number of stripes.

6. Point made by Morge & Garrotta on German arty/airstrikes. (Thanks guys, I will add a restriction so that these cannot be targeted on the bridges or over Kustrin... Any clever people know how to code that in? )

Not sure if this is possible. An alternative would be to have onboard arty which have a limited range.

7. Following an interesting idea by Justin, am toying with the idea of reducing movement points for trucks (to make it harder/slower for Germans to shift their 88s around). Any thoughts in favour or against?

If I understand correct you think it's too easy for the Germans to send their 88s from one flank to the other. Why not reduce number of German transports? Give them just 2-3 trucks/halftracks. Then you have to prioritise what unit to transport.

8. And if all of that still doesn't rebalance enough, then I totally LOVE the idea of giving the Reds a significant reinforcement wave... Let the Germans trash the first wave. That's history. It happened... But a clever Soviet commander could sacrifice that first wave to knock out enough stuff and weaken key locations, so that his second wave should succeed

Reinforcement waves would be great.

9. Upgrade all of the soviet militiamen to riflemen and SMGs... Heck, if the little guys had survived as far as Seelow, they probably knew what they were doing by then

Agree.

10. Add in the "Dead units don't get any LOS" code (thanks P-A, for pointing out that this isn't supported in plain vanilla BA2... I hadn't noticed that dead units still kept their vision, argh!!)

Can't understand why this wasn't added to the BA2 core script.

11. Speed up Soviet smoke artillery to fall faster (in -1 turn instead of -2)

12. Either (i) make German mortars reload in 2 turns (currently 1), or (ii) allow Russian ZiS-3 artillery to reload in 1 turn (currently 2)... to make smoke/bombardment more equal (for some reason, German 120mm mortars are significantly more accurate/lethal than ZiS-3 bombardments... Need to examine the code to figure out why? )

I like the new smoke barrages, but I don't like that so many units have smoke. As you in BA2 can give a side multiple bonuses of the same kind, like smoke barrages, you could give they 2 to 3 of these without reducing the reload time. Then remove smoke from some of the units, or at least reduce number of smoke grenades.
I agree on allowing the Zis-3 to fire each turn. And you could increase the bombard range.

13. Add some mud and remove some tracks (roads) from the German lines... to slow down (too) rapid relocations by the Germans

Agree.

14. Consider adding a delay to 88/ZiS3 move and fire (so if a gun is moved, it cannot fire the next turn; setup time)

Interesting idea.

15. Swap the Wirbelwind for something else. Apparently there is no damaged Wirbelwind 3D graphic anymore

Are you sure?

I don't mind having free deployment. This would give the players more options to plan strategies and would make this scenario more fun to play multiple times. As it is now (especially for the Soviets) I must use a couple of turns to deploy my units for the strategy I'm intending to use.

[GottaLove88s]

Thanks everyone... Updated Vistula to Berlin 1945 - Battle #1: Seelow Heights v1.1b is now available to download



Download in the usual way

1. Run BA2 on your Mac, PC or iPad
2. If you have not previously installed VTB'45, skip ahead to Step 8... If you have, then you must delete your old version first (steps 3-7)
3. Choose Multiplayer (from the menu at the right)
4. Log in to Multiplayer as usual
5. Choose the My Challenges tab (at the top) then press New Challenge (bottom centre)
6. Select the VTB'45 Battle #1 scenario and then Delete this Campaign (bottom right)
7. Press X until you get back to BA2 start screen
8. Choose Campaigns (from the menu at the right)
9. Choose Download Community Scenarios (stacked folders icon at the top)
10. Choose Download a Campaign Package from the Internet (red basket icon to the top right)
11. Type http://bit.ly/VTB1945 into the URL box
12. Click the green tick
13. Back at the campaigns list, select "VTB45 Battle #1: Seelow Heights v1.1b" and click Download the Selected Campaign (folder with red arrow icon, bottom centre)
14. This should download everything that you need
15. Press X until you get back to the BA2 start screen and choose Multiplayer
16. Log in to Multiplayer as usual
17. Either go to the My Challenges tab and click the New Challenge arrow. This list will now show the Vistula to Berlin VTB45 Series campaign
18. Or go to the Accept Challenges tab and click the scenario that you're supposed to be fighting (if your opponent has already setup your game)

Finally you can play VTB'45 on any platform... Phew!!

v1.1 has been updated with your feedback on v1.0, including:

- German nebelwerfer/Me262 can no longer target Kustrin or the Oder bridges
- Germans get fewer free units, and fewer elites
- Soviet militia upgraded to SMGs and riflemen
- Soviets get two IS2s (I think I've been had, Al - there is no IS1 model in BA2! )
- German 120mm mortars softened to 82mm (Let me know if these are now too weak, and I can increase to 3-man mortar team)
- Lots more mud and other obstructions, with broken road/tracks on the Heights, to slow down one-turn relocation of 88s (Best I can do for now, Justin, but happy to add in a Kfz 6,7,8 model if we can find one)
- Dead units now lose their line of sight (LOS) when they die (versus losing LOS at the end of the next turn) (Thanks for the reminder, P-A!)
- Soviet ZiS-3 bombard strengthened slightly (Let me know if you find this too strong, and I can tone it down)
- Infantry squads can now jump on the back of some large tanks, to get to the Front faster (Sorry, I was lazy to code this properly, so it also means that the same large tanks can pull artillery too)

Retained features of v1.0:

- Vistula to Berlin 1945 (VTB'45) modified units, with recon cars that can actually reconnoitre and more infantry per unit, to overcome the one shot and you're suppressed grunt duels of plain vanilla BA (with thanks to Granfali for his clever innovation to do this in GJS'44)


But first, some tasty screenshots and some warnings... Don't expect instant action. This is strategy... Both sides have lots of units. Both sides have very useful bonuses. Use 'em wisely... Both sides can make plenty of smoke. If you want to win, forget smoke at your peril...

It's an epic but it should be a fun replication of one of the more fascinating battles of WW2... All feedback welcome please. Am happy to tweak it, to get the balance right... With these changes, I'd expect the Soviets to win at least 4 to 1. But they will still have to fight hard versus a cunning German opponent... Enjoy guys!

1st WARNING: It's a large map with plenty of hidden treats for Generals with the patience (and persistence) to seek them


2nd WARNING: It's a slow starter. You have got to enjoy taking at least your first 3-4 turns to position large forces the way you want them


3. The Russians get 64 fixed units... I want to create the illusion of this being Zhukov's million man 1st Belorussian Front... If you start as the Reds, you're going to feel invincible with your troops marshalled along the shattered streets of Kustrin


4. The Germans get just enough free units plus 1500 points to spend. As in 1945, the Wehrmacht enjoys sloping terrain advantages and is well dug in. Here a Puma scout car looks down on the burned out shell of Kustrin town and ponders its own fate


5. Zhukov begins his advance. The Soviets deploy a battery of four 76mm artillery guns... The wily Red is going to need the smoke that those babies can shoot...


6. The Puma keeps a watchful eye on the enemy vanguard. I've modified unit characteristics so that the Puma and T70 'recon' cars now enjoy genuine reconnaissance abilities, longer visual range than other tanks


7. Awesome height perspective as the Puma radios back locations of the lead Su-122. Entrenched veteran gunners prepare to open fire... The Reds should have covered their advance with smoke from the Zis-3 battery


8. But the Germans face overwhelming enemy superiority of numbers... so a cunning commander might hide something special at the village... The Russians must take all four VPs to secure the Road to Berlin


The eagle eyed among you will note that multiple bonuses are available... including spotter planes for both sides, large scale artillery, Katyusha & Nebelwerfer rocket barrages, Sturmovik IL-2 ground strike aircraft and the Luftwaffe's last few Me262s...

Did I mention that volunteers are kindly requested...?

[GottaLove88s]

I've posted two challenges if anyone wants to give it a go...

[morge4]

forgot to ask...can Engineers get some of their play toys coded in??

[morge4]

Also, I see the old games are no longer playable...getting 'unknown custom scenario'. I take it we are going to have to start new games?

[GottaLove88s]

Also, I see the old games are no longer playable...getting 'unknown custom scenario'. I take it we are going to have to start new games?

Hey Al, The old map is still in there, so you can continue old games if you open the CAMPAIGN.TXT and add back [SEELOW1].
The SQUADS.CSV is shared tho, so you'll get the latest unit stats (and should get your buddy to upgrade too, to have the same).
Sorry!

[GottaLove88s]

forgot to ask...can Engineers get some of their play toys coded in??

Possibly.
I need to catch up with Modders Corner to see what's best now. What would you like to see included?
Enric's Leaders scripts look pretty cool, right...?

[GottaLove88s]

CURRENT REVISION PLANS FOR v1.2

1. Drop $DEFAULT.BSF into the campaign folder to see if this activates 'dead unit LOS' code - Am not convinced that this is fully working yet (when it does, players should lose line of sight LOS from units when they die, not at the end of the next turn)
2. Reduce the purchase cost of Jagdpanther (currently 246) ... If a Tiger II costs only 12 more, it's a no brainer to buy... Jagdpanther isn't worth 36 more than a Tiger I
3. Consider removing the elite extra move from all scouts? They're fast enough without it!
4. Let the defending Germans move first
5. Tidy up messily placed barbed wire in southeast square of Kustrin
6. Review whether it's working for infantry to 'ride' on tanks (Players views welcome?)
7. Review Zis-3 bombardment? It's too inaccurate (so on average 0-1 of 3 shot salvo will hit, having minimal effect on their target)
8. Review whether 82mm mortars are now too weak? (early feedback suggesting that 2-man 82mm is too weak; consider going back to 120mm)
9. Make smoke removal even more gradual (tweak to 10% chance for smoke removal, increasing by +10% every turn; rather than 25% chance, increasing by +25% every other turn)
10. Add back the GJS'44 'merge units' code (to permit two damaged units to merge together to become a single stronger one; with thanks to Enric & Amaris for that one )
11. Remove the trench corner at 32,48
12. Tank riders are kicked off if (i) the tank fires, or (ii) the tank is fired upon; (iii) tank riders lose men/morale if tank is attacked with HE (has anyone coded anything like this before?)
13. Fix/remove barbed wire by the stream; if it is damaged it somehow turns the stream into open ground
14. Modify AP for 88s so that they can still load into a transport, even when they're suppressed (suppression should stop them firing, not stop them running away lol; check if mortars/Zis3 are equally rabbit-like when in headlights)
15. Stop T70 and Pumas from breaking down (otherwise T70 can get stuck on the Oder bridge for turn 1, doh!)
16. Tweak victory objectives so that Russians must take and hold all four VPs until the end of the game to win
17. Add achievements, eg. Zhukov unit must survive, 3/4 ZiS-3 guns must survive, Take the Hardenberg within x turns, etc...

As always, all feedback welcome...

[morge4]

forgot to ask...can Engineers get some of their play toys coded in??

Possibly.
I need to catch up with Modders Corner to see what's best now. What would you like to see included?
Enric's Leaders scripts look pretty cool, right...?

Tank traps, building bridges, blowing up bridges, P-A has a script that allows armor to take down hedges, all the cool things they had in GJS Normandy games

[GottaLove88s]

forgot to ask...can Engineers get some of their play toys coded in??

Possibly.
I need to catch up with Modders Corner to see what's best now. What would you like to see included?
Enric's Leaders scripts look pretty cool, right...?

Tank traps, building bridges, blowing up bridges, P-A has a script that allows armor to take down hedges, all the cool things they had in GJS Normandy games

Sure. I think it's reasonable to have engineers capable of:

- build pontoon bridges,
- blow up any bridge,
- add/remove tank traps (although limiting the build to once per engineer per game, because I recall certain players abusing the earlier versions of this to construct long roads of tank traps, lol),
- construct/blow up barricades (again limiting the build as above, and also to a tank trap or a barricade, not both; consuming construction materials),
- construct small sandbag fortifications (limiting as above),
- do you want the terraform function (ability to cut down trees) too?

I would definitely add in P-A's hedge cutting function. And I need to investigate Enric's latest Leaders script, which looks really rather cool...

What did I miss?

[morge4]

- do you want the terraform function (ability to cut down trees) too?

Hmm...would't be needed by the Soviets in this game...need all the cover they can get. Not sure if I'd use it as German either..but I'm just one vote...maybe others would have a different opinion?

[jcb989]

If you're planning a campaign, might as well add in all the available functions you can stomach now.


In other news. I got myself caught between versions and games in progress. I now have a game back from cavehobbit that I can't respond to lol =(