Battle for Seelow Heights... Road to Berlin

[jcb989]

Oh boy! I'd forgotten that... Obviously u played Justin in Carpiquet too, Al?

Hey I wasn't the only one barricading that road, lol.

[jcb989]

The 'shrek is about twice the size and even greater power than the 'faust

How sure are you this fact? I think at 1 square, the faust may have had more punch late in the war. But would have been less accurate at say 2 squares than the shrek.
Anyway, that is how I would model them. faust 1 square, shrek 2 squares. Don't edit the shrek properties but make the faust very deadly at 1 square.

[glenghiscan]

Just played a game with cave hobbit and as soon as the Russians got all the flags it was game over ? I thought they had to defend the flags up to the last turn ?

[morge4]

Oh boy! I'd forgotten that... Obviously u played Justin in Carpiquet too, Al?

Hey I wasn't the only one barricading that road, lol.

True but, I think yours were the most effective. My poor Fireflies

[Celeborn]

--Will stand by with optimistic expectation on observation height --advantage...can't imagine it will be much fun to try to code but I think it would be a great addition.
--if grass has been coded as concealment terrain then it must have been incompetence on my part (a much likelier explanation btw)
--152s would be in lieu of something else with attendant need for rebalancing overall Soviet OB. Desire here is more a function of historicity(?) than anything
--very much like idea of simply allowing for Panther purchase. In general I like give as many purchase options as possible. BTW Jagdpanther was a tank destroyer and so really only shares nomenclature with PzV

Just finished first game with Veritas and also witnessed sharp defeat of Germans. The script was nearly identical to that of GL88/cavehobbit's game where my forward defense along the H line was overrun with only modest Soviet losses. Infantry in particular were essentially sitting ducks despite being in trenches, while the (fortified) 88s went down fairly quickly a la all other ATGs in BA2. After one play it is too early to ascribe to the outcome to play balance (vice superior play on part of Veritas) and so am looking forward to a re-match. That said am going to nonetheless make a few pro-German suggestions:

--allow Germans to either deploy and/or allow greater visibility range from units at top of hill ( suspect there were a lot of binoculars up there)
--make stream in front of H Line genuinely impassable (current configuration suggests it acts a genuine obstacle). If this is not historically supported then maybe replace crossing point stream tiles with marsh/vegetation
--marsh/vegetation didn't seem to act as concealment terrain for infantry
--riders didn't appear visible
--add Panzershrecks and Panthers to German OB, SU-152 to Soviet

also wanted to reiterate previous post re needed fixes to smoke (hello Pip!)

Seelow is def the best MP scenario out there and I hope there will be several sequels.

Thanks for helping to trial Seelow, Celeborn!

Your praise is generous indeed. You make me want to work even harder...

Your feedback is really helpful:

- Am experimenting with how to give units at higher levels (eg. on hills) or using tall buildings (eg.. watchtowers) greater visual range (Haven't quite got there yet, but am working on it)
- The problem with some stream squares acting as open ground is caused by the barbed wire. I've fixed this for v1.2 (Sorry!)
- From the games I'm playing tall grass or marsh grass both act to hide movement. If you were seen, could it have been in a marsh square without marsh grass? Or could he have hidden a scout nearby?
- Based on your feedback, I'm posting a vote on Panzershrecks and Panthers below...
- Are you reeeally sure you want to give the Reds a couple of Su-152s? The 122 is pretty darned powerful. Do you mind if I see how the first games play out. If it's still too easy for the Germans, 152s would be one way to help the Russians

Back to the BA2 Editor, I guess...

[Celeborn]

As mentioned in previous post I like Panther purchase.

Re panzerfausts (PF), in mid-43 all infantry types were issued PF and in increasingly prodigious quantities as the need to stem the Asiatic armored horde became more urgent in 44-45. That there is a unit limit argues even more strongly for making them an embedded capability vice a separate unit. Like panzershrecks (PS) they should be given a two tile range, esp in '45 scenarios when the Series 100 with a nearly 100m range was deployed widely, albeit with less accuracy than PS at one and esp two-tiles where the PS tube design (like the bazooka) very much helped hitting the target. Lastly suggest any use of PF (or Panzershreck) in buildings/bunkers cause target to be revealed due to backblast. (this should be applied to Bazookas as well though not the spring-fired PIAT)

As a mildly interesting aside, mid-43 also witnessed issuance of anti-tank magnetic mines which unlike satchel charges employed the more deadly HEAT warhead a la PF, PS, bazooka, PIAT. (Allied HEAT rounds were distinctly inferior to the German variety as exemplified by 82nd Airborne using PF in lieu of the over-vaunted bazooka). ATMM were discontinued a year later after the (much safer to use) PF was refined.

Guys, two votes please:

VOTE 1: A few testers have requested the return of Panthers. For now, Seelow Heights includes the option to buy Jagdpanthers (a later version of the Panther, with stronger sloping armour). Show of hands. Would players prefer to have the Jagdpanther or the original Panther?

VOTE 2: Several other testers have requested having Panzerfausts. To stay within BA2's strict unit limits, I can't add Panzerfausts. However, I'm considering adding Panzerfaust attack strength/animation to German infantry, to simulate infantry squads including a Panzerfaust. So the 2nd show of hands is would you prefer to keep infantry as they are (with grenades) or give them panzerfausts? This would only affect plain vanilla 'German infantry'. Commandos, Waffen SS, Engineers, Ostruppen, Scouts, etc, would stick with their normal anti-armour strength/animation...

Thanks for your help everyone

Thanks for your responses so far guys! Ok, from early responses, the following seems to be the most acceptable compromise:

1. Include regular panthers AND jagdpanthers... Neither for free... Let the German player decide which he wants to buy (I'll have to scrap something else in the German options, because of BA's 64-unit limit per side, including all available options, but I'll figure out a way)

2. Add in 2-3 Panzershreks as purchasable infantry options for the Germans. The 'shrek is about twice the size and even greater power than the 'faust (and tbh I'd forgotten about them becos I so rarely use 'em myself). I'd agree with Justin tho. Let it fire max 2 spaces, darned near lethal at 1 space into the side/rear, but much less accurate/effective at 2 squares. Again, as above, I'll have to drop 2-3 other options to stay under BA's 64-unit limit, but there's enough there that's loseable... For example, I'm guessing the Germans don't really need those Brandenburg commandos, which feel kind of overpowered anyhow...

Fair summary of what you'd like to see next?

[jcb989]

Just played a game with cave hobbit and as soon as the Russians got all the flags it was game over ? I thought they had to defend the flags up to the last turn ?

If this point is made clear in a mission briefing upon open, I think the scenario will play fine the way you have it already - Soviets win if they should have all flags at any point in the game.

[GottaLove88s]

Just played a game with cave hobbit and as soon as the Russians got all the flags it was game over ? I thought they had to defend the flags up to the last turn ?

Thanks Glenghis, it's an error. You're right. The Russians are supposed to have to take all 4 VP flags AND HOLD them until the last turn. My game vs cavehobbit ended the same way, but he was crucifying me anyway so it was only a matter of time lol... Added to the changelist (below). Sorry...

[GottaLove88s]

CURRENT REVISION PLANS FOR v1.2

1. Drop $DEFAULT.BSF into the campaign folder to see if this activates 'dead unit LOS' code - Am not convinced that this is fully working yet (when it does, players should lose line of sight LOS from units when they die, not at the end of the next turn) - Y
2. Reduce the purchase cost of Jagdpanther (currently 246) ... If a Tiger II costs only 12 more, it's a no brainer to buy... Jagdpanther isn't worth 36 more than a Tiger I - Y
3. Consider removing the elite extra move from all scouts? They're fast enough without it! - Y
4. Let the defending Germans move first - NP
5. Tidy up messily placed barbed wire in southeast square of Kustrin - Y
6. Review whether it's working for infantry to 'ride' on tanks (Players views welcome?) - TBD
7. Review ZiS-3 bombardment? It's too inaccurate (so on average 0-1 of 3 shot salvo will hit, having minimal effect on their target) - TBD
8. Review whether 82mm mortars are now too weak? (early feedback suggesting that 2-man 82mm is too weak; consider going back to 120mm) - Y (back to 120mm)
9. Make smoke removal even more gradual (tweak to 10% chance for smoke removal, increasing by +10% every turn; rather than 25% chance, increasing by +25% every other turn) - TBD
10. Add back the GJS'44 'merge units' code (to permit two damaged units to merge together to become a single stronger one; with thanks to Enric & Amaris for that one )
11. Remove the trench corner at 32,48 - Y
12. Tank riders are kicked off if (i) the tank fires, or (ii) the tank is fired upon; (iii) tank riders lose men/morale if tank is attacked with HE (has anyone coded anything like this before?) - TBD
13. Fix/remove barbed wire by the stream; if it is damaged it somehow turns the stream into open ground - Y
14. Modify AP for 88s so that they can still load into a transport, even when they're suppressed (suppression should stop them firing, not stop them running away lol; check if mortars/ZiS-3 are equally rabbit-like when in headlights)
15. Stop T70 and Pumas from breaking down (otherwise T70 can get stuck on the Oder bridge for turn 1, doh!) - Y
16. Tweak victory objectives so that Russians must take and hold all four VPs until the end of the game to win
17. Add achievements, eg. Zhukov unit must survive, 3/4 ZiS-3 guns must survive, Take the Hardenberg within x turns, etc...
18. Remove ability for snipers to take out anti-tank guns/artillery with a single shot
19. Restrict sniper skill to scouts only - Y
20. Offer Germans greater choice in purchasable tanks, inc Panthers as well as Jagdpanthers
21. Add some panzershrek teams (edited to max 2 square range, lethal into rear/side from 1 square)
22. Reduce transport shots to 1+1 return fire (vs. 2 +1 by default). Copying a smart idea from cavehobbits Authie. They are supposed to be transports! - Y
23. Add Enric's Leaders scripts (with kind and generous permission of genius author!)

As always, all feedback welcome...

Y - Yes. Done in v1.2 (coming soon)
N - Decision not to do this
NP - Not possible in BA2
TBD - To be decided

[GottaLove88s]

Guys,

I need to trouble you with one more question:

Vote 3: Leaders yes or no?

If folks want 'em, I'd like to ask enric & cavehobbit for permission to adapt their Leaders code for Seelow. Enric's code enables leaders to grant promotions or encourage their men to do more (extra AP). Cavehobbit's leaders are uberscouts, with longer vision, ability to see into nearby buildings/woods and, of course, rally for a single nearby unit.

[MacD2013]

Guys,

I need to trouble you with one more question:

Vote 3: Leaders yes or no?

If folks want 'em, I'd like to ask enric & cavehobbit for permission to adapt their Leaders code for Seelow. Enric's code enables leaders to grant promotions or encourage their men to do more (extra AP). Cavehobbit's leaders are uberscouts, with longer vision, ability to see into nearby buildings/woods and, of course, rally for a single nearby unit.

I haven't played with Cavehobbits but I really like what Enric's leaders add to a game. Gives that impression of officers being important and playing a role on the battlefield.

As for Seelow, I'm in a game right now and either I wasn't aware of this or had never thought of it, but Russian tanks seem to be able to cross the river where it's that "marshy grass" area? Doesn't seem possible. Also gives the Soviets the ability to do a huuuuge right hook unimpeded all the way to the back of the map essentially. Just out of curiosity, how much smoke does each infantry unit have?

Your map is beautifully done and researched. If I may make a suggestion, why not put Volksgrenadier in there instead of Ostruppen?

[GottaLove88s]

Thanks for your kind comments, MacD!

Hmm, that's my view too. I really like both Enric and Cavehobbit's Leaders scripts... If they generously give us permission, I'd like to adapt the best of both, to use with Seelow.

Hmm, sorry, yes you're right. There are a few glitches in v1.1. I've started to make fixes and improvements on the changelist -> viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132&p=517892#p517772

The problem you're hitting is item 13. For some reason, BA2 interprets water with barbed wire as 'open ground' which is really confusing to play on. For the v1.2 upgrade (coming), I've moved things around so that the barbed wire won't do that anymore.

That said, some of the grassy areas over the stream represent narrow fords where tanks can cross. Otherwise, the map would be too easy to defend.

Different units carry different amounts of smoke. When you select a unit that can make smoke, point at the smoke icon, and BA2 should show you the amount of smoke charges remaining...

Hope that helps?

[morge4]

Vote3 - Yes

[cavehobbit]

Guys,

I need to trouble you with one more question:

Vote 3: Leaders yes or no?

If folks want 'em, I'd like to ask enric & cavehobbit for permission to adapt their Leaders code for Seelow. Enric's code enables leaders to grant promotions or encourage their men to do more (extra AP). Cavehobbit's leaders are uberscouts, with longer vision, ability to see into nearby buildings/woods and, of course, rally for a single nearby unit.

"My" leaders are in fact Enric's leaders. I've just removed all other abilities other than Rally. Enric's leaders also have the scouting abilities, but I'm usually set mine as elite level to give then the golden wings, just to make them easier to find. I will make a test and remove the scouting stats in Squad.csv. As you point out, now leaders function as scouts, not what I think should be their primary role.

MacD, if you like to take part in testing my Normandy maps, send me a PM.

[GottaLove88s]

Thanks for the clarification, P-A. That helps me to figure out how to best employ Leaders (Enric has v kindly agreed to permit us to use his code )
MacD, DO IT! Cavehobbit's Authie scenario is awesome. A gold standard that I'm attempting to bring Seelow up to!

[Celeborn]

6: like riders but limit to vehicles of sufficient size (> 70mm gun)
9: smoke needs much greater overhaul per previous post though probably something for Pip to address
12: generally agree. Fire alone shouldn't require bailing out but changing turret cover arc should regardless of fire (no idea if that can even be coded)
23: absolutely but without sniper/scout. Leaders should only modify other units...

CURRENT REVISION PLANS FOR v1.2

1. Drop $DEFAULT.BSF into the campaign folder to see if this activates 'dead unit LOS' code - Am not convinced that this is fully working yet (when it does, players should lose line of sight LOS from units when they die, not at the end of the next turn) - Y
2. Reduce the purchase cost of Jagdpanther (currently 246) ... If a Tiger II costs only 12 more, it's a no brainer to buy... Jagdpanther isn't worth 36 more than a Tiger I - Y
3. Consider removing the elite extra move from all scouts? They're fast enough without it! - Y
4. Let the defending Germans move first - NP
5. Tidy up messily placed barbed wire in southeast square of Kustrin - Y
6. Review whether it's working for infantry to 'ride' on tanks (Players views welcome?) - TBD
7. Review ZiS-3 bombardment? It's too inaccurate (so on average 0-1 of 3 shot salvo will hit, having minimal effect on their target) - TBD
8. Review whether 82mm mortars are now too weak? (early feedback suggesting that 2-man 82mm is too weak; consider going back to 120mm) - Y (back to 120mm)
9. Make smoke removal even more gradual (tweak to 10% chance for smoke removal, increasing by +10% every turn; rather than 25% chance, increasing by +25% every other turn) - TBD
10. Add back the GJS'44 'merge units' code (to permit two damaged units to merge together to become a single stronger one; with thanks to Enric & Amaris for that one )
11. Remove the trench corner at 32,48 - Y
12. Tank riders are kicked off if (i) the tank fires, or (ii) the tank is fired upon; (iii) tank riders lose men/morale if tank is attacked with HE (has anyone coded anything like this before?) - TBD
13. Fix/remove barbed wire by the stream; if it is damaged it somehow turns the stream into open ground - Y
14. Modify AP for 88s so that they can still load into a transport, even when they're suppressed (suppression should stop them firing, not stop them running away lol; check if mortars/ZiS-3 are equally rabbit-like when in headlights)
15. Stop T70 and Pumas from breaking down (otherwise T70 can get stuck on the Oder bridge for turn 1, doh!) - Y
16. Tweak victory objectives so that Russians must take and hold all four VPs until the end of the game to win
17. Add achievements, eg. Zhukov unit must survive, 3/4 ZiS-3 guns must survive, Take the Hardenberg within x turns, etc...
18. Remove ability for snipers to take out anti-tank guns/artillery with a single shot
19. Restrict sniper skill to scouts only - Y
20. Offer Germans greater choice in purchasable tanks, inc Panthers as well as Jagdpanthers
21. Add some panzershrek teams (edited to max 2 square range, lethal into rear/side from 1 square)
22. Reduce transport shots to 1+1 return fire (vs. 2 +1 by default). Copying a smart idea from cavehobbits Authie. They are supposed to be transports! - Y
23. Add Enric's Leaders scripts (with kind and generous permission of genius author!)

As always, all feedback welcome...

Y - Yes. Done in v1.2 (coming soon)
N - Decision not to do this
NP - Not possible in BA2
TBD - To be decided

[Celeborn]

Any update on when the next revision will be out?

[GottaLove88s]

Hey Celeborn, Sorry got caught up with work for awhile... Had to prep and do a conference in Spain...
Should get more time over the next couple of weekends... Hope to have v1.2 out before the end of the month...

The biggest change will be fewer units at any one time, reinforced in waves for both sides, adapting as the scenario moves forwards (think Authie style)
The intention is to improve playability without messing up each player's freedom too much

Other than that, I've just been working thru my 'to do' list above...
Soon.

[Celeborn]

Cool...looking forward to it!

[rwm59]

Hi, really fantastic work !
I'm trying to remake this on German Side.
How I can use your fantastic map, without the setting originals ?
Ive just made a copy of it in a my personal campaign, but for example, even start the Allies, also if, I change with the editor, the Side O on German, and I has deleted yet all the units.
If Change with the editor the side of start ( o for germans . 1 soviet ) when I start the battle The icons are inverted...
Then I believe I use a " ex novo " of your map". Can you help me ?
tks and merry xmas