Any Scenarios on Constantinople 1453 ?

Byzantine Productions Pike and Shot is a deep strategy game set during the bloody conflict of the Thirty Years War.

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DonCzirr
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Any Scenarios on Constantinople 1453 ?

Post by DonCzirr »

Forgive aging eyes if I could not see it in the list, but does one exist?

I think it would be fun to try causing the Ottomans enough pain to at least regroup and try again later.

Variants could include greater Western aid / reinforcements etc ....
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rbodleyscott
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Re: Any Scenarios on Constantinople 1453 ?

Post by rbodleyscott »

Not yet
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DonCzirr
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Re: Any Scenarios on Constantinople 1453 ?

Post by DonCzirr »

Thanks for the confirmation.

Paul, Edward, Warlord, Odenathus - other talented P&S battle designers - anyone given thought to this?

I recently played the Storming of Calais scenario and the engine seemed to handle the siege mechanics pretty well. I found it to be a highly enjoyable scenario.

Nice work Warlord !

Thanks
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Philippeatbay
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Re: Any Scenarios on Constantinople 1453 ?

Post by Philippeatbay »

There are a couple of critical aspects of that particular siege that the engine doesn't model: naval warfare and mining.

You could in theory construct scenarios covering individual assaults on the Theodosian Walls, but to get the real flavor of the siege you need mechanics for mining and counter-mining, because apart from Urban's bombard*, that was how you would blow a hole in the triple walls (only one was defended because the defenders didn't have enough troops). The tallest of the three walls was probably vulnerable even to late medieval cannon, but the middle wall (the one that was defended) must have been almost as hard to hit as an eighteenth century fortification, hence the need for mining.

You also need naval mechanics and rules covering the chain across the entrance to the Golden Horn. The sea walls along the Golden Horn had been stormed by the Crusaders in 1204, and everyone knew that the Horn was the city's Achilles heel. If memory serves there were a few small harbors on the Sea of Marmara side, but the strong currents made assault from that direction difficult.

But the the importance of naval rules extends far beyond mere assaults. If the Ottomans couldn't control the waters of the Golden Horn and the Sea of Marmara, the city wouldn't have been cut off from supply and possible reinforcement. There were still a few Westerners trickling in at the start of the siege, but if it had dragged on through the summer more would have tried to show up. It still would have been a case of too little too late, but watching the small greek naval force sally out to try to escort late arrivals in could be very exciting.

Once the Ottomans hauled ships overland past Galata into the Golden Horn the outcome of the siege was a foregone conclusion. The defenders barely had enough men to man one of the three walls on the landward side, but with the Golden Horn in play they would have had to defend twice as much perimeter. To make matters worse, the defensive walls on the Golden Horn side had always been notoriously weak, a single set of not well maintained walls as opposed to the Theodosian triple wall.

The whole point of all of this is that while assaults are dramatic, they don't really give you a picture for what goes on in a siege. The key decisions are not the ones made during any particular assault, but the ones that are made over a much longer period of time. To do a siege properly would require a different kind of game engine.

[*Note: Urban was a Genoese or possibly Hungarian engineer who built cannons for the Ottomans. Urban's bombard was the largest cannon that had ever been built up to that time].
Last edited by Philippeatbay on Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
DonCzirr
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Re: Any Scenarios on Constantinople 1453 ?

Post by DonCzirr »

Wow - thanks for the history lesson on this.

I had only lightly read up on the siege and it seemed interesting.

Maybe a future RBS title could cover the elements you described adequately.
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smjohnso77
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Re: Any Scenarios on Constantinople 1453 ?

Post by smjohnso77 »

How about a scenario on the final assault where the breaches were already made. Also, the ships would be in place. If the Byzantines can cause enough casualties then they can win. It would be interesting.
SnuggleBunnies
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Re: Any Scenarios on Constantinople 1453 ?

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

Realistically, they couldn't have won. Even if they managed to repel one assault, the next one would have overrun them.
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DonCzirr
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Re: Any Scenarios on Constantinople 1453 ?

Post by DonCzirr »

Yep - even with my light reading on the subject, I realized there was no hope in terms of the "big picture". So - usually in wargames this might be addressed by putting time limits or loss limits on the superior force. Given Philippe's comments above however - it seems quite difficult to implement for this battle regardless of such ratio / time based measures.
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Philippeatbay
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Re: Any Scenarios on Constantinople 1453 ?

Post by Philippeatbay »

The final assault would be pointless, because it was clear to everyone on both sides what was about to happen (which is why the Emperor took off his rank insignia and fought in the breach). But one of the earlier assaults which proved to be a hopeless failure for the Ottomans might lend itself to some kind of treatment. To really win the Ottomans would have to storm the walls, but failing that they would need to inflict a lot of casualties without suffering too many of their own. Since this would be a land wall assault only scenario, the map could probably be limited to the area south of the Blachernae palace. Might not be that good a scenario though, because what makes the siege interesting are the besieger's moves to stretch the defender's resources beyond the breaking point, and that is done with constant bombardment, boats, and mining.
smjohnso77
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Re: Any Scenarios on Constantinople 1453 ?

Post by smjohnso77 »

Not pointless. Fun to try to see how long can one hold out in a hopeless situation. Siege of Malta - Ottomans final assault against the Knights of St. John as a relief force from Italy approaches from the land would be fun. The Battle of Zenta 1697 or the other battles of Prince Eugene and the Austrians against the Ottomans between 1697 and 1718 would be a fun topic too.
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