best way to counter superior tanks?

[steevodeevo]

Hi, I was wondering whether I am missing a trick or two.

At certain points in the game, whatever nation or scenario you play, you will find yourself outgunned by superior armour. In a defensive battle I would be pretty cool with this; mines, AT, engineers, ambush, supply, but in OoB, which is more often than not offensive based and time limited, how do folks manage to be aggressive when the enemy has more and better tanks? Ground attack aircraft aside.

[bebro]

Weaken with arty, air strikes if you can before ground attacks.

Try to set up ambushes in forest hexes.

Have AT units ready as backup, as "cover" for front line units.

That would be some ideas, I'm sure there are more.

Remember that even the strongest units don't do well anymore when they're on low efficiency.

[steevodeevo]

thanks bebro, that is useful. Some I do, some i'm less diligent about (the arty one I am aware of but i'm sloppy doing softening up at times). On the whole, its useful to see it in writing as it helps me be more systematic and disciplined.

after thought - i'm pretty sure one of my main play style weaknesses is I don't use enough organised strategic or tactical Arty.

[bru888]

Another obvious tactic is to cut off their supply if possible. Same result as artillery/air strike shock damage in that insufficient supply also lowers unit efficiency, a key concept in this game. If I had to put my finger on why inexperienced players have difficulty with OOB, it would be not knowing how to induce/exploit/avoid/recover from low unit efficiency.

[steevodeevo]

Another obvious tactic is to cut off their supply if possible. Same result as artillery/air strike shock damage in that insufficient supply also lowers unit efficiency, a key concept in this game. If I had to put my finger on why inexperienced players have difficulty with OOB, it would be not knowing how to induce/exploit/avoid/recover from low unit efficiency.

Recovering from low unit efficiency is a problem for me. The problem with withdrawing a unit to the rear, dropping it onto a good supply hex, or better still on a city hex, for a few turns is it is out of action and often units being low efficiency is due to frantic defence or offence against the clock where all of my units are in a similar state. I really am a poor player if the answer to this is... "wow really? don't you rotate all of your your sub 50% efficiency units to the rear? I always do"

[bru888]

Recovering from low unit efficiency is a problem for me. The problem with withdrawing a unit to the rear, dropping it onto a good supply hex, or better still on a city hex, for a few turns is it is out of action and often units being low efficiency is due to frantic defence or offence against the clock where all of my units are in a similar state. I really am a poor player if the answer to this is... "wow really? don't you rotate all of your your sub 50% efficiency units to the rear? I always do"

Like so many other things in life, "It's easy to say and hard to do" at times. But yes, you should strive to do exactly what you said whenever you can. I remember pitched battles that I would have lost, actually did lose the first time around, but persevered when I learned to keep a reserve and rush it into battle to let battered units withdraw and recover for a while. Over and over until I finally wore down the enemy.

As I have said, until I realized this and started to play with an eye to unit efficiency (mine and my enemy's), I stank at OOB. Now I'm quite proud to call myself "mediocre."

[steevodeevo]

Recovering from low unit efficiency is a problem for me. The problem with withdrawing a unit to the rear, dropping it onto a good supply hex, or better still on a city hex, for a few turns is it is out of action and often units being low efficiency is due to frantic defence or offence against the clock where all of my units are in a similar state. I really am a poor player if the answer to this is... "wow really? don't you rotate all of your your sub 50% efficiency units to the rear? I always do"

Like so many other things in life, "It's easy to say and hard to do" at times. But yes, you should strive to do exactly what you said whenever you can. I remember pitched battles that I would have lost, actually did lose the first time around, but persevered when I learned to keep a reserve and rush it into battle to let battered units withdraw and recover for a while. Over and over until I finally wore down the enemy.

As I have said, until I realized this and started to play with an eye to unit efficiency (mine and my enemy's), I stank at OOB. Now I'm quite proud to call myself "mediocre."

Thanks for taking the time again Bru. I note and will adopt, I agree and its a chink of hope for me. I have taken the radical step of deleting all of my saved game progress over several years, some of them classic jump off points, back to prior to blitz and panzer, and am starting the whole shebang again. There have been a great many patches and tweaks since day zero and I have learned so much so I'm going to start WW2 again from scratch (pardon if that is crass).

I'm going to change my campaign investment strategy, this seems to be a culprit to my issues from what i've read over the last 2 or 3 days (thank's so much folks). It may change, but my obsession with state of the art tanks and planes is going to be somewhat muted and Arty and a few other investments I haven't made before in the tech tree, or made later rather than sooner, will be re-prioritised.

[bru888]

I may dump on this game from time to time but I will be very glad to see somebody like you come back to it with enthusiasm. In spite of everything, it is a very good game. It could be even better and go to many other places if managed properly. We are doing our part, I think. Let us see if our patience and loyalty are rewarded.

[bebro]

Another thing comming to my mind: mass attack - so do not fight 1 vs. 1 only, but support attacks with other units from several directions if possible. That helps with any opponent, not just tanks, but might make a difference still vs. them.

[jeff00t]

i think most new players don't use AT units as "cover". It could be usefuf to see a red range of cover when we put the mouse on it.

[steevodeevo]

i think most new players don't use AT units as "cover". It could be usefuf to see a red range of cover when we put the mouse on it.

I think that's a great idea / reminder / hint

[GabeKnight]

But mind you, that AT support units do not give "health" cover bonuses for the supported unit. They just do more return-damage then:

AT-support_demo.jpg (355.88 KiB) Viewed 3282 times

Try to set up ambushes in forest hexes.

Don't know why it hasn't been brought up more, but for best defense use the terrain to your advantage. For example: Never let infantry be attacked by tanks on open terrain, always use river-banks to your advantage, etc. etc.

[conboy]

I always try to make sure I have ample arty and some AT to cover the infantry for any area I am advancing into (I always regret it when I don't!). I use tanks only for attacking weakened armor and infantry in the open (and encirclement). Try to set up blocking points on the river banks when you see the KV1s and other big-ass tanks coming - a good full-strength infantry unit on a riverbank might stall them long enough to bring other units into play or redirect them toward anti-tank units set to pounce when they move. Pound them with indirect fire to reduce efficiency, then hit them with AT, then infantry, then tanks (sometimes a tank will need to go before infantry if you think the tank will retreat the enemy). Tactical bombers make it a great deal easier, and taking on one of those behemoths in open terrain is a real drag. It always takes me a couple of turns to knock one out - even then they might survive three turns. Watch your flanks when attacking because the other forces will try to rescue them - it might evolve into a trap using the giant tank as bait.

If an enemy tank is losing efficiency, never let it rest! Hit it with anything - weak arty, weak infantry, fighters -- it doesn't matter because a unit cannot recover efficiency if it is hit by anything while trying to rest. The AI knows this and so do good players - never let the enemy rest, especially armor. After attacking it with all you have for one turn, you can let your guys rest and reinforce, but in so doing you must hit the target at least once with something to keep from having to do it over again against a refreshed enemy.

EDIT- you only have to hit it once while it is recuperating (don't throw a bunch of weak units at it - let your units rest and reinforce for the next attack)

EDIT- another thing that is important is recon - try to have a recon plane ahead of your units so you can see threats as they emerge so you can adjust your troop disposition to react. Getting surprised by these big tanks can really set you back a few turns at great cost.

EDIT 2 - For some reason, the AI will attack a unit supported by AT at least once -- it's as if the AI doesn't see it until the first time it is employed. So always try to have your point unit backed up by AT adjacent to/directly behind. Getting that first blow in from a defensive position makes all the difference.

In short, try to pick some good terrain and hit them with indirect fire, then AT, then the rest - be relentless. Your offensive will stall until you knock it out so better throw everything you have at it.

conboy