No Rhyme/Reason to Elite Replacements???

[stan23]

There seems to be no rhyme or reason to the the RP cost of elite replacements. One point for a particular unit may cost 7 or 8 RP per point,
the next unit of the same class and same experience level cost 15-20 RP per point. Can anybody explain the formula to me? I should say I
always use elite replacements for my core units at the start of a new scenario, never during. Does a unit that has a Commander cost more?
Do different units within the same class cost more? I can't figure it out and I'm hoping someone smarter than me out there in the community can help.
Thanx to all replies and
Greets from Virginia.

[CoolDTA]

The RP cost is logical, but the problem is that for some unknown reasons the devs like to keep everything they can hidden. This is very much the opposite to say, Panzer Corps, which even has the excellent detailed after combat report. But that's the way it is and it hasn't prevented me from buying all the DLCs and the forthcoming ones also.

So, what follows is how I see it from my experience:

Replacement cost = Price x Amount x Experience x Quality x Discount

Price is the purchase price of the unit.

Amount is the amount of strength points you get. It can be something between 0.51 - 5.00 pts. The game uses fractions, so for instance what looks like being exactly 2, may actually be only 1.51. This is why two apparently identical units may have a different repair cost. For instance let's assume unit A has an actual strength of 5.6 and unit B 6.4. The game shows both having a strength of 6. Now if you use the big repair, unit A gains +4.4 and unit B +3.6 strength points., but it looks like both got exactly 4 points at different cost for no reason.

Experience is the figure you see if you hover the mouse over the stars (0 - 10,000). Two thousand points equals to one star, but the cost formula uses the exact value.

Quality is the quality of the replacements used (regular/elite). Elite replacements do not lower the experience of the unit, but are much more expensive.

Discount is something you can get from a specialisation like Pilot Rotation.

Note that the formula above is not the real formula in the game, but a method to show the variables involved. It is all very logical, but shrouded in a veil of mystery. Note also that I used only two decimals to keep the explanation simple, but the game likely uses more.

I might have forgotten something, but that's it for now.

[Shards]

Also, you'll get better value from replacing more strength at once.

e.g. Replacing 5 Strength will usually be better value than 2 strength, which will also be better value than 1 strength (often due to rounding of decimals, as CoolDTA points out).

It costs more to maintain a unit at high experience as the replacements that must be drafted in must be of that same high quality. So it's generally only worth maintaining a few units at high XP otherwise you'll be paying crippling costs. Personally, I'll try to maintain my airforce, artillery, lead Tankers and Heavy Infantry at high xp and just use normal replacements for the rest.

[cutydt02]

the point is, this game doesnt show how effective the expriment work. NOT like in panzer corps, you can easy realise how elite unit smash enemy, stand ground and explain how, Oob just hide all of it.
I sometimes wonder when i should use regular replacement when i cant see decent different from 3 stars to 5 stars

[CoolDTA]

Also, you'll get better value from replacing more strength at once.

e.g. Replacing 5 Strength will usually be better value than 2 strength, which will also be better value than 1 strength (often due to rounding of decimals, as CoolDTA points out.

The difference is very small, pretty much negligible (max 2% for expensive units and usually less), but yes, it is there. Gabe made an example in one thread, so I'll paste it here (thanks Gabe! ):

German PzKVI Tiger, new=280RP
Repair costs, 5-star:
196RP - 5HP (=39.20 RP/HP)
157RP - 4HP (=39.25 RP/HP)
118RP - 3HP (=39.33 RP/HP)
79RP - 2HP (=39.5 RP/HP)
40RP - 1HP (=40.0 RP/HP)

In other words, for expensive units the large repair is indeed the cheapest. But we're talking about 4RP's max out of 200RP's repair costs!!!

[GabeKnight]

Well, I can't think of more to add to what CoolDTA and Shards said, except I got a bit encouraged to do a small test again

Screenshot 470.jpg (598.64 KiB) Viewed 4737 times

So, for those interested I did a bit reverse-math and the formulas for repair cost should be as follows:
(tested on land units only, but I guess it applies to all )

Regular repair cost = unit cost * HP * 0.05
Elite repair cost = unit cost * HP * (0.06 + 0.008 * experience/1000)

(spec "Discounts" not included; and don't forget the game always rounds up to full RP)

[stan23]

Thanx Guys. Very Good answers
I wouldn't have figured out in a million years they used fractions.
But CoolDTA brings up a point that has both puzzled and irritated me since I came over from Panzer Corps and
started playing OOB, and that is all the 'secrecy'. Let me explain.
I like Kradschutz units (Zundapp Motorcycle) and I like Cavalry, but now with the Sandstorm update,
Zundapp's are now hidden and no longer available, even in the editor, and the cavalry STILL has the graphical bug I jokingly
call 'pick up you rifles' glitch and there are many others. I really don't like that one damn bit! The Devs seem to be very tonedeaf to gamer complaints.
I don't know if this is intentional or not, (it's probably not), but to me personally, many times OOB seems to be unnecessarily frustrating.
PC may be a more simplistic game I suppose, but modding it to where you got the game YOU liked was easy.
Not OOB. I'm still waiting for the Sandstorm patch, BTW.
Anyway-Rant Finished.
Thanx again for the answers guys and
Greets from Virginia

[Shards]

Hi,

Which Sandstorm patch are you waiting for?

[CoolDTA]

So, for those interested I did a bit reverse-math and the formulas for repair cost should be as follows:
(tested on land units only, but I guess it applies to all )

Regular repair cost = unit cost * HP * 0.05
Elite repair cost = unit cost * HP * (0.06 + 0.008 * experience/1000)

Wow, you're the wizard. There's an inconsistency in the formulas (or rather in the game) - directly linked to your post in the Tech forum, I see. The devs probably should consult you with the math.

And I really like your armoured core in the image. Seems to be ready to face the Soviets in Volkskrieg.

[stan23]

Shards
You mentioned a patch on 24 May in the 'First Patch' post.
I hope I'm not misunderstanding that there would be a patch out eventually to fix the issues mentioned in that particular post.
Greets from Virginia.

[stan23]

Wait..
Is 6.1.8 what I've been waiting for?
I just noticed.

[Shards]

Hi,

Yes, that's the latest patch

[stan23]

[stan23]

Do replacements cost the same during battle and at the start of the scenario?
Do units with Commanders cost more?
Just curious.

[13obo]

Yes - this is not PzC.
No - they do not. Commanders are detachable and not bound to unit. They do impact the amount of experience the unit gains though if the commander adds infantry/mechanical attack, because more damage = more exp.

[stan23]

Thanx 13obo

[bru888]

This was a very good thread! I finally got around to cleaning out some of my "Other Bookmarks" to be kept and categorized or absorbed and deleted at a later date, and this was one of them. In this case, I gleaned information from it for one of my OOB information text files as shown below. Thanks, guys.

Image0194.jpg (327.12 KiB) Viewed 3854 times

[Horst]

Or summarized: never use elite-repair!
I don't know how often I have thought I had enough spare RP left just to realize how quickly I was blank again after upgrading many units.

[Mojko]

Or summarized: never use elite-repair!
I don't know how often I have thought I had enough spare RP left just to realize how quickly I was blank again after upgrading many units.

I definitely disagree with that. The trick to keeping your RP high is not avoiding elite repair, but to redirect majority of incoming damage to your meatshield units like engineers and and normal infantry. Your tanks should never attack enemy unit that has 8 or more efficiency unless the unit is really low strength. This is the true key to massing large amounts of RPs so you can afford superior unit upgrades. Another important thing to note is that you should plan your unit composition ahead of time so you can take advantage of discounted upgrades, saving even more RPs. I always use the Unit navigator tool to scout upgrade paths and decide on unit composition. For example I completely skipped the useless Panzer III path and stuck with Panzer IV all the time. Even in later stages of Sandstorm the Panzer IV is absolutely adequate when fighting US / British tanks.

TLDR: if you can't afford Elite unit repair, you're playing sub-optimally and you should review your strategy.

[Horst]

I possibly have too many variants with my mod, hence the higher demand of upgrade-fun. Neverthless, I think it depends on nation and campaign, in particular the campaign length how the RP management goes along. Pre-knowledge of scenarios and knowing-your-nation surely make a huge difference. Tough units like tanks and artillery surely can make it to 5 stars without any elite-repairs.