Naval movement

Order of Battle is a series of operational WW2 games starting with the Pacific War and then on to Europe!

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Erik2
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Naval movement

Post by Erik2 »

I have always tought naval movement was too slow and also inconsistent. And moving ships over distances was a bit boring.
So I've gathered data on actual speed for all the major power's current ships in OOB.
I used supply/transports as a starting point, using their 3 movement hexes as 15 knots. That is reasonable.
Then I simply divided all actual speeds with 5 and rounded down.
I think the resulting movement rates will provide more variety to similar classed ships and be more fun to play.

Aircraft carriers have a fairly high movement rate. But they would also be forced to be stationary when launching/retrieving aircraft. I think a good solution would be to force the carrier to be stationary in the game when doing this, at least when launching air units.

All data is from 'Conway's All The World's Fighting Ships' 1906-1921 and 1922-1946.

Edit: I wish the forum would keep the txt formatting I used when editing :twisted:

Here goes:

Ship Knots Movement
Bismarck 29 5
Scharnhorst 32 6
Graf Zeppelin 35 7
Deutschland 28 5
Hipper 32 6
Emden 29 5
K Class 32 6
DD 1934 38 7
DD 1936 40 8
1936 A/B/mob 38 7
S26 39 7
S100 45 9
Type IX 18/7 3/2

King George V 28 5
Implacable 32 6
Avenger 16 3 British, not US
County 28 5
DD E-Class 36 7
Battle 40 8
T-Class 15/9 3/2

Colorado 21 4
North Carolina 28 5
South Dakota 27 5
Iowa 32 6
Lexington 33 6
Yorktown 32 6
Essex 32 6
Midway 33 6
Casablanca 19 3
Commencement Bay 19 3
New Orleans 32 6
Wichita 33 6
Baltimore 33 6
Clemson 35 7
Gleaves 35 7
Fletcher 38 7
Sumner 36 7
Gearing 36 7
PT Boat 38 7
US subs 20/8 4/2

Nagato 26 5
Kongo 27 5
Yamato 27 5
Soryu 34 6
Hiryu 34 6
Shokaku 34 6
Unryu 34 6
Shinano 27 5
Ryujo 26 5
Taiyo 21 4 CVE not CV
Ise 23 4
Myoko 35 7
Mogami 37 7
Tone 35 7
Ibuki 29 5
Fubuki 38 7
Kagero 35 7
Yugumo 35 7
Shimakaze 39 7
Akitsuki 33 6
Matsu 27 5
Shinyo 28 5
Jap subs 23/8 4/2
Kaiten 30 6
A-Ko 19 3

Gun Boats 15 3
Supply 15 3
Transport 15 3
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Andy2012
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Re: Naval movement

Post by Andy2012 »

More realistic? Probably. You seem to have done your research. Good job (where do you always find the time for this? Really impressive.) :D
More fun? Not sure. Have you tried this out? Did they try this out in Kriegsmarine? I mean, if that DLC would prize realism above gameplay, you would loiter in the Atlantic in a stinking steel coffin for dozens of turns.. hopefully, this wont happen. *fingers crossed*
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Re: Naval movement

Post by jakemon »

Those changes would improve simulating vessel speeds, but what does it do to game play? Personally, I'm a poor admiral and struggled with fleet engagements in US Pacific, but these come to mind:

* Convoys will still want to travel at the speed of the slowest common denominator.
* Gunnery range and vessel speed are somewhat tied together (e.g. DDs 3 hex range and 4 hex movement).
* Game gunnery mechanics penalize closing the distance with your opponent (e.g. move & fire in the same turn).
* DDs torpedo salvos are more effective close in. A 75% movement increase really brings that home.
* Interesting impact on sub surface speed
* Nicely addresses speed of battlecruiser groups
Erik2
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Re: Naval movement

Post by Erik2 »

The devs have had no qualms about changing naval gun ranges to rather extreme lengths since the game was originally launched.
So this proposed change in movement ranges is almost trivial compared to this.
But gun/movement range is related, so maybe some adjustments would be needed. If yes, I hope they will take a hard look at actual gun ranges so the results are consistent.

I have not tried extended movement ranges in a mod (yet), only been buggered about low and incosistent movement ranges since I was part of the initial beta team :D
Personally I don't think it will have a big effect on play-balance in current scenarios. But personally it would make for a more enjoyable naval game with more dynamic play.
Kriegsmarine brings along a number of naval enhancements (I loved testing the scenarios). More varied naval movement could be a part of this. And it is very easy to implement for the devs.

Move & fire in the same turn: My proposed movement changes would give the devs more leeway with the gun effectiveness related to movement since the movement ranges are wider.

Damaged ships: There will most probably be some reduced movement for damaged ships, increased movement will allow for more detailed movement reductions as well.

Subs: I was a bit surprised to see that most sub surface speeds were that high. I think gameplay will improve a bit with greater difference between surface/submerge speed. Some sub types will be able to catch up on a convoy if they use the more dangerous surface speed. More fun IMO. Especially if some of the recon air units will get their historical ASW capabilities.

Convoys: Escorts will naturally need to stay with the convoy ships. No change there.

Aircraft carriers: Their mostly very higher movement rates are the only ones that may need some rethinking. I propose adding a mechanic for launching/retrieving air units. But lowering their movement would also be fine with me.

It would be interesting if the devs chimed in, at least after they've finished the Kriegsmarine testing.
Andy2012
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Re: Naval movement

Post by Andy2012 »

Erik wrote:The devs have had no qualms about changing naval gun ranges to rather extreme lengths since the game was originally launched.
So this proposed change in movement ranges is almost trivial compared to this.
But gun/movement range is related, so maybe some adjustments would be needed. If yes, I hope they will take a hard look at actual gun ranges so the results are consistent.

I have not tried extended movement ranges in a mod (yet), only been buggered about low and incosistent movement ranges since I was part of the initial beta team :D
Personally I don't think it will have a big effect on play-balance in current scenarios. But personally it would make for a more enjoyable naval game with more dynamic play.
Kriegsmarine brings along a number of naval enhancements (I loved testing the scenarios). More varied naval movement could be a part of this. And it is very easy to implement for the devs.

Move & fire in the same turn: My proposed movement changes would give the devs more leeway with the gun effectiveness related to movement since the movement ranges are wider.

Damaged ships: There will most probably be some reduced movement for damaged ships, increased movement will allow for more detailed movement reductions as well.

Subs: I was a bit surprised to see that most sub surface speeds were that high. I think gameplay will improve a bit with greater difference between surface/submerge speed. Some sub types will be able to catch up on a convoy if they use the more dangerous surface speed. More fun IMO. Especially if some of the recon air units will get their historical ASW capabilities.

Convoys: Escorts will naturally need to stay with the convoy ships. No change there.

Aircraft carriers: Their mostly very higher movement rates are the only ones that may need some rethinking. I propose adding a mechanic for launching/retrieving air units. But lowering their movement would also be fine with me.

It would be interesting if the devs chimed in, at least after they've finished the Kriegsmarine testing.
Well, Erik you definitely are ahead of everybody around here.
Gun ranges: This is for Kriegsmarine, right? Bismarck firing all over the map?
Gun power and movement: Okay, there is crossing the T as a tactic, but what else? Am I missing things here?
Sub speed: Would be realistic. Subs were mostly on the surface then for radio contact, travel and night attacks. Submerged, batteries drain fast. Under water was mostly hiding and daytime attacks. At night, attacks went more like a quick surface dash, fire a torpedo salvo, dive, hide, sneak away. Really recommend Das Boot (book, movie is also great).
So, when do we get more infos or videos by Paradogs Gamer about Kriegsmarine? Should be done soon, right?
Erik2
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Re: Naval movement

Post by Erik2 »

Gun range: There is some added experimental functionality in Kriegsmarine.
Currently gun effectiveness is dependent on whether the attacker and/or defender have moved. Works fine as is. If you hover the mouse around when attempting a move you'll see the combat prediction changes.
Torpedo effectiveness is probably also affected in addition to being next to the target. But harder to test.

Testing of KM is in its 2nd or 3rd round (an on going process). Every update is usually introducing some issues that need to be fixed in addition to changes to the new scenarios themselves as testers report back.
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Re: Naval movement

Post by ChrisMDw »

I think there ought to be at least some tweaking of the ship's movement ranges. Even if it wasn't broken down into 5 knot increments, there should be a closer relationship between real world speed and movement in game. Even breaking it into 7-8 knot increments would provide realistic differences between ships, while keeping fast ships from being able to leapfrog across the map.

To me this is most noticeable with the Iowa-class battleships. As fast battleships they were designed to be as fast as the carriers and cruisers of the battlegroups, yet in the game they are the same very low movement rate as the rest of the battleships. This means their advantage over other classes of battleship is only one or two points of AA effectiveness, rendering it an entirely pointless ship. By the time the Iowas become available, the aircraft threat to the fleet is nearly nonexistent. But trying to sail into Tokyo Bay with your fleet to provide fire support puts the battleships way behind the rest of the ships. It would make an Iowa ship purchase/upgrade an attractive option if it would mean getting to provide fire support from the Bay several turns earlier than one of the slow battleships. As it stands now, there is zero reason to even consider an Iowa.

Chris
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Re: Naval movement

Post by AceDuceTrey »

I did the same thing in my units file only I used 7 knots as the divider- works great. I also changed the firing ranges for all main and secondary batteries based on actual naval WWII firing tables. I also looked up the actual ranges for all aircraft and adjusted their loiter times (fuel) to match their typical sortie rates: single engine fighter= fuel 5 move 20%; single engine attack bomber, twin engine fighter, light/tactical bomber = fuel 4 move 25%; strategic bomber = fuel 3 move 50%.
P.S. In WWII, before catapults, carriers had to race at flank speeds, into the wind, to launch and recover aircraft.
Erik2
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Re: Naval movement

Post by Erik2 »

Re air movement and fuel modifications.
I collected aircraft data from various Gary Grigsby games (War in the Pacific, East Front and West Front).
I used endurance in minutes as the basis for fuel turns and max speed in mph for movement hexes.

The Bf109 D/G versions have the lowest endurances of all air types in OOB.
I wanted the lowest no of fuel turns for a air type to be 2. So 81minutes endurance/40 = 2 fuel turns for the Bf109 D/G (the game adds an additional fuel turn in play).
Then I divided all other endurance values by 40. The current max fuel turns are 36 for the H8k Seiku (I do not like unlimited fuel turns for recon planes).

Next I needed to find a suitable number of movement hexes for the Bf109 D/G versions. I needed to expand these quite a bit from the default values since the number of fuel turns are now much lower.
Diving the Bf109D max speed 354mph by 20 equals about 18 movement hexes. That works well.
So the slowest aircraft is the Seafox = 5 hexes and the fastest the Ki-201 Karyu = 26 hexes. None of the values are too extreme.

I have attached my spread sheet if anyone wants to take a look.
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