Waffen SS

Order of Battle is a series of operational WW2 games starting with the Pacific War and then on to Europe!

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Shards
Slitherine
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Re: Waffen SS

Post by Shards » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:53 am

Thanks all for keeping this respectful! I'm grateful that our community has enough experience and insight to realise that we build our games to respect the laws of our target markets. And given that it's the lives and deaths of their forebears that we are often reliving, it strikes me as doubly essential that we look to the requirements of German law.

FYI, details on the laws in question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgese ... ection_86a

Also, just FYI, the crossed keys of the 1st SS Panzer is also a restricted symbol with the German ratings agency USK. (if you play Battle of the Bulge on PS4 (where a USK rating is required) then you'll find that it's not there).

Of course, there's no problem with lt1956's (or other) mods, but please don't start publicising screenshots etc on here as that puts us in a questionable position where we may have to remove them, just for our own safety.

Thanks!

bru888
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Re: Waffen SS

Post by bru888 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:38 pm

You know, last night I was working on a scenario and I was at a point where I needed to depict defeat, one in which a unit which I was trying to rescue was destroyed. As in massacred. I went scouring the internet, looking for an appropriate picture of . . . dead bodies. It struck me, not for the first time of course but forcefully this time, that we are talking about and depicting war for entertainment. Events that probably none of us here had anything to do with or were too young to be influenced by (if you were lucky not to be a child in a war zone, that is). If you ever go looking for such depictions of World War 2 death and destruction, especially to the human body, you will find plenty. Suffice to say that I took a different approach in my scenario.

What the heck does all this have to do with what Shards just said? Well, when he said "it's the lives and deaths of their forebears that we are often reliving," that's what prompted me to share my story. It's important to remember that terrible things occurred all over the world in the 1930s and 1940s and that we are playing a game based on these events. There are lines that I will not cross out of simple respect and if that includes avoiding the public use of certain symbolism in order to extend my respect to the people who lived and died in those times, and their descendants, then that is what I will do.
- Bru

GabeKnight
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Re: Waffen SS

Post by GabeKnight » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:18 pm

Good points. Although I may see it a bit differently, I can fully understand these points of view.

@Slitherine
I'm gonna continue to mod my game (privately) as I see fit, with accurate symbols and flags of that time and whatever, so there may be such symbols on possibly many of my screenshots to come. I will definitely NOT be using them in terms of "propaganda" as stated in the German StGB §86ff, merely for artistic purposes and historic accuracy. But I have no problem removing or changing my screenshots for the public if those may "[...] put you in a questionable position", so please just let me know, if such mentioned issues should arise (in the future).

prestidigitation
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Re: Waffen SS

Post by prestidigitation » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:04 pm

I'm totally down with not using Nazi symbols, but could we get a different version of the main flag as opposed to a pirate flag for the SS? The KM gets a white background on the standard WM flag, maybe give the SS a yellow or green or something background (blue should be avoided for color blind people). Conveys that they are different, doesn't look nearly so silly.

Erik2
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Re: Waffen SS

Post by Erik2 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:26 am

Question

If a custom scenario uses event graphics which may included visible parts of a swastica flag, can we still publish the scenario in the proper forum here?
If not, I probably need to remove my custom German campaigns and scenarios.
Most Luftwaffe aircraft pictures includes banned symbols on their tails...

Shards
Slitherine
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Re: Waffen SS

Post by Shards » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:51 am

Hi,

I'd say that the issue would be putting imagery on this site. If it's files you're hosting and you're not using those images to promote the scenarios on here, then I can't see any problem

Ta

lt1956_slith
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Re: Waffen SS

Post by lt1956_slith » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:54 pm

I also imagine if the decals are SO SMALL that they would be unnoticed anyway. I think the main thing is not promoting Nazi pictures and paintings etc that would be obvious to violate the Germany Laws. If I posted a image of my game and there happen to be a tiny little flag with 2 lightening bolts I doubt the house would burn down, but posted HUGE pics of Tanks etc I think would be a Red flag. lol

kondi754
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Re: Waffen SS

Post by kondi754 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:31 pm

Shards wrote:
Also, just FYI, the crossed keys of the 1st SS Panzer is also a restricted symbol with the German ratings agency USK. (if you play Battle of the Bulge on PS4 (where a USK rating is required) then you'll find that it's not there).
Is it also prohibited in Germany to publish such symbols in scientific books and journals?

In this thread there is a tank with the emblem of two crossed keys, so feel free to delete it if you want. :wink:

Andy2012
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Re: Waffen SS

Post by Andy2012 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:51 am

@kondi, all: It is not illegal to display Nazi symbols in Germany for education and research or films (with permission, usually granted). The key point is promotion and idealization of Nazism (is that a word?) and active distribution in an organised way. So showing historical pics with swastikas etc is most likely fine (in scenario events), describing the Waffen SS with its original symbols as a useful upgrade (which it is in OoB) rather perilous, legally. Most likely, a case would not be opened because hardly anybody would notice, but Slitherine does not want to risk that. Put shortly, history is fine, celebrating Nazis is not.

kondi754
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Re: Waffen SS

Post by kondi754 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:32 am

Thank you very much Andy for the specific and short presentation of the legal status in Germany.
I understand Slitherine, Germany is a big market for computer games. Even here in the forum most users are Germany and the US citizens. :wink:

I asked this question because I meet more and more frequently in scientific military and history journals with articles about strategy games (including those available here :) ), so I think we can begin to treat strategic computer games as well as scientific literature. 8)

cwapp1967
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Re: Waffen SS

Post by cwapp1967 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:24 am

If the swastika or ss runes were used in this game I would not buy it. I am Jewish and lost family in the Holocaust. I also am a retired SFC from the US Army, and can't imagine committing the atrocities that the ss did. If someone wants to mod the game for personal use with nazi symbols that is their personal preference. I have read some people in these forums say who cares that was almost 80 years ago. If someone to round up and murder all the Christians in Europe no one would be saying who cares.

Andy2012
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Re: Waffen SS

Post by Andy2012 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:56 pm

cwapp1967 wrote:If the swastika or ss runes were used in this game I would not buy it. I am Jewish and lost family in the Holocaust. I also am a retired SFC from the US Army, and can't imagine committing the atrocities that the ss did. If someone wants to mod the game for personal use with nazi symbols that is their personal preference. I have read some people in these forums say who cares that was almost 80 years ago. If someone to round up and murder all the Christians in Europe no one would be saying who cares.
This is about history, nobody is supporting Nazi ideology around here. If you find any offensive statements, please report them. We take this very seriously.

So, everybody stoked for Sandstorm? What I have seen and played so far, it is an excellent DLC.

13obo
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Re: Waffen SS

Post by 13obo » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:18 pm

Very subtle change of topic! Did the DLC restore your faith in the game again?

Andy2012
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Re: Waffen SS

Post by Andy2012 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:53 pm

13obo wrote:Very subtle change of topic! Did the DLC restore your faith in the game again?
I never lost faith. I think you are talking about bru, we are both mods and so have the same logo.

13obo
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Re: Waffen SS

Post by 13obo » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:02 pm

Nope, not confusing you, ofc- I am able to read after all. Just felt like you have your moments of doubt too but glad you're overall an optimist!

Looking forward to the DLC very much.

Duplex
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Re: Waffen SS

Post by Duplex » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:56 pm

The new DLC is SO cool! I can't say anything about it though I don't think...
"Surrender is the ultimate defeat."

Creator of Chinese Custom Scenarios

Andy2012
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Re: Waffen SS

Post by Andy2012 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:41 am

Duplex wrote:The new DLC is SO cool! I can't say anything about it though I don't think...
Agree. Wish I had more time to playtest now.

UweBlietschau
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Re: Waffen SS

Post by UweBlietschau » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:17 pm

Yes playtest please !

PoorOldSpike
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Re: Waffen SS

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:33 am

Andy2012 wrote:..Wish I had more time to playtest now.
I offered to playtest Sandstorm in this post below 4 weeks ago but nobody replied, so I've been watching endless reruns of Judge Judy ever since (sniffle)-

"Personally I'm a complete PC dummy so it's no use me applying to be a Sandstorm tester if it involves doing geeky stuff.
However if the devs care to drop a pre-release version in my lap and say "Test that" without having to do any fancy twiddling I'd be happy to put in 10 hours a day playtesting it 7 days a week and making suggestions, comments and divine spiritual insights etc.."
http://slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=264&t=83035

Andy2012
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Re: Waffen SS

Post by Andy2012 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:27 am

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Andy2012 wrote:..Wish I had more time to playtest now.
I offered to playtest Sandstorm in this post below 4 weeks ago but nobody replied, so I've been watching endless reruns of Judge Judy ever since (sniffle)-

"Personally I'm a complete PC dummy so it's no use me applying to be a Sandstorm tester if it involves doing geeky stuff.
However if the devs care to drop a pre-release version in my lap and say "Test that" without having to do any fancy twiddling I'd be happy to put in 10 hours a day playtesting it 7 days a week and making suggestions, comments and divine spiritual insights etc.."
http://slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=264&t=83035
Did you apply formally here?
http://slitherine.com/beta/cnda.asp?gid=727

Also, check your spam Mail folder.

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