What will be after Road to the Moon?

Buzz Aldrin's Space Program Manager (SPM) Road to the Moon is the ultimate game of space exploration.

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What will be after Road to the Moon?

Post by TheCanadianVending » Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:05 am

As title suggests. So, Road to the moon will include up to, Skylab? MIR? Shuttle Era? Or will the second episode include the Shuttle, Mir and that

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Re: What will be after Road to the Moon?

Post by NASAIsAwesome » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:34 am

TheCanadianVending wrote:As title suggests. So, Road to the moon will include up to, Skylab? MIR? Shuttle Era? Or will the second episode include the Shuttle, Mir and that

You got it.
Episode Two is from 1970-2020. Apollo Appliccations Programme (Manned Venus and Mars flybys), different types of moonbases, Skylab, space shuttle, Mir, Salyut, and maybe Orion, Ares, and SLS, ISS is certain, and so is Commercial Crew, but as for the smaller programs (Polyus, VentureStar, Space Exploration Intiavtive) aren't as likely to be included (Might need a mod).

Just say'in

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Re: What will be after Road to the Moon?

Post by Sabratha » Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:35 am

NASAIsAwesome wrote:
TheCanadianVending wrote:As title suggests. So, Road to the moon will include up to, Skylab? MIR? Shuttle Era? Or will the second episode include the Shuttle, Mir and that

You got it.
Episode Two is from 1970-2020. Apollo Appliccations Programme (Manned Venus and Mars flybys), different types of moonbases, Skylab, space shuttle, Mir, Salyut, and maybe Orion, Ares, and SLS, ISS is certain
If all that makes it into episode 2, then it sounds really cool.

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Re: What will be after Road to the Moon?

Post by Nacho84 » Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:29 pm

Sabratha wrote:If all that makes it into episode 2, then it sounds really cool.
Yes, Skylab, the ISS and the Space Shuttle are already planned for part 2. We'll see which other programs to include at a later stage... we need to finish part 1 first :)

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Re: What will be after Road to the Moon?

Post by hyphon » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:47 pm

IMHO you really should split up between shuttles and stations.
The shuttles are important for building the stations, but because of the logistics, space stations have their own complexity (actual: Progress, ATV) and the maintenance of the Shuttles are extreme.
And the programs are expensive... ISS is only working, because of the international character of the station.

I think that is why, NASA never had really good space stations and the USSR/RUSKOSMOS never had a really good shuttle program.

And if you plan to go to 2020, you have to implement the Constitution program (ARES-X, Orion), new Moon flights. Preparation for Mars missions (for example "MARS 500").

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Re: What will be after Road to the Moon?

Post by Sabratha » Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:33 am

hyphon wrote:And the programs are expensive... ISS is only working, because of the international character of the station.
Yes and no. Yes, because indeed the monetary cost is divided amongst more players. No, because exactly this limited space spending is caused by the cooperation and its underlying political reality. There's no cold war now - no political will to engage the kind of money used in space exploration the 60s and 70s.
hyphon wrote:I think that is why, NASA never had really good space stations and the USSR/RUSKOSMOS never had a really good shuttle program.
The east never had a good shuttle program because the Buran program started too late. Before the Buran could prove its mettle, the economic situation in the eastern block fell apart, then the eastern block fell apart and finally the USSR itself fell apart. I don't see why, were it be continued, the Buran project would prove less efficient than the space shuttle.
Its all hypotethical of course, but the Buran was in many ways similar t the space shuttle and would probably be not much different in practice.

As for NASA space station - I really think in this respect NASA fell victim to its own success of its manned lunar missions. By the 70s the soviets shifted gears and expanded on its already promising Salyut program, while the US was still thinking mostly in terms of manned space missions.
I really think Von Braun hit the nail on the head in his space station plans first articulated in the mid 60s (hint: Good idea for an alternative program for the US player in episode 2). However nobody was listening to von Braun at that point, all absorbed by the moon race.
Skylab then was limited in scope and given its cost it was an under-acheiver, with Salyut stations being cheaper and at least as usefull.

Just my 0.02 USD.

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Re: What will be after Road to the Moon?

Post by hyphon » Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:56 am

Yes and no. Yes, because indeed the monetary cost is divided amongst more players. No, because exactly this limited space spending is caused by the cooperation and its underlying political reality. There's no cold war now - no political will to engage the kind of money used in space exploration the 60s and 70s.
Actual BASPM is simulating ONE international space agency. Even the agency is international, the costs are astronomical. And ISS is working because there are different agencies which can split up costs.

For example: ESA isn't paying NASA for using their scientific equipment, communication costs and resources like water and oxygen. That works because ESA is doing some things for NASA:

1. Cargo transport with the ATV.
2. Technical, engineering and scientific support with Orion via ATV technologies.
3. Allowing to use ESA probes as carrier for US/NASA instruments.
4. Let Mars Express serving as on demand backup for emergencies of MRO and MSL. (Mars Express was involved into the "Sweep&Beep" campaign to reactivate Spirit)

That sounds a cheap deal, but that pay's off. Every kilo of material that doesn't need to be paid is more worth than pure gold. So if NASA can lift 2 tons of material into space without paying the rocket, fuel, cargobay and the groundcrew, it would save several millions per launch. It's a win-win situation.

That's something that one agency can't provide. That's what I tried to say.
The east never had a good shuttle program because the Buran program started too late. Before the Buran could prove its mettle, the economic situation in the eastern block fell apart, then the eastern block fell apart and finally the USSR itself fell apart. I don't see why, were it be continued, the Buran project would prove less efficient than the space shuttle.
That was sure the main problem for the whole Russian space program. Just with help of NASA and ESA, Ruskosmos managed to keep the Mir alive for such a long time.

But there were also some technical issues:
Buran wasn't real ready to flight with a human team into space.
Buran had never reached an orbit higher than 300 km because of the missing main-engines.
The Energija was much too expensive and with four boosters maybe a greater risk as the Boosters from the STS.
Heat shield was inefficient and the used material more vulnerable to break off than the heat shield of the STS.

But after all i had loved to see it starting to a real mission.

@nacho: If you realize this, please add Buran and Hermes to it. Even all the Lifting Body projects before the STS and Buran were developed.

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Re: What will be after Road to the Moon?

Post by Nacho84 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:29 pm

hyphon wrote:@nacho: If you realize this, please add Buran and Hermes to it. Even all the Lifting Body projects before the STS and Buran were developed.
Oh, yes, I read and take notes of everything, so don't worry about that :)

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Re: What will be after Road to the Moon?

Post by Sabratha » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:44 pm

hyphon wrote: That's something that one agency can't provide. That's what I tried to say.
No argument there. What I was saying was that the competition of the 60s caused both the US and the USSR to spend a larger proportion of its overall budget and more per capita money on the space programs, than any country today does. Also take into account infaltion and that a modern dollar is worth significantly less than a 60s dollar.
So today USA is spending much less of its cash on space technology than it did in the 60s.

Had there still be the sort of interstate rivalry we seen before and had both the USA and Russia were spending the same percent of their budget as they did then, we would today see probably several space stations larger than the ISS and maybe a moon base.
Both countries would be poorer though, as they would spend less on infrastructure, education etc.

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Re: What will be after Road to the Moon?

Post by hyphon » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:29 pm

@Sabratha: You still have an nuke-save bunker in your backyard, don't you?

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Re: What will be after Road to the Moon?

Post by Sabratha » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:37 pm

hyphon wrote:@Sabratha: You still have an nuke-save bunker in your backyard, don't you?
I live in a highrise 80s commie era apartment block, I don't have a back yard :mrgreen:

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Re: What will be after Road to the Moon?

Post by N_Molson » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:04 pm

One think that should be considered is that NASA was near of being able to launch a Mars mission in the 70's, maybe not a landing but certainly a manned orbital mission... There were plenty of projects for Saturn-V upgrades, rendez-vous in LEO and use of a Nuclear-Thermal space tug (NERVA/KIWI engines were successfully tested in the 60's). With minor modifications and an habitation module (more radiation shielding, solar panels instead of fuel cells, slightly upgraded re-entry shield), the Apollo capsule was suitable.

In other words, if at the end of "Road to the Moon" the player has a lot of funds, he might ask himself why the "Saturn/Apollo" technology suddenly turns into a dead end... Historical reasons were political and financial. Maybe some in-game events could explain this (oil crisis, a conflict, I don't know...) ?

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Re: What will be after Road to the Moon?

Post by hyphon » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:32 am

@N_Molson: One of the main reasons, for abandon manned Moon/Mars exploration missions, were that Apollo reached the Kennedy's goal: "Reach the moon before the decade (the 1960's) end's"
An other was the low public interest after Apollo 11 (except Apollo 13, after the exploding tank), the NASA just cancelled 3 flights before Apollo 13 was launched.
Except for the last mission just USAF/USN pilots landed on the moon, so the scientific goals weren't that lucrative to invest billions of dollars into more missions and the weren't more political goals to achieve.

The U.S.S.R. started to develope space stations, so there was no real race to Moon/Mars.
The USA started to think about a new way to get (military) satellites cheap into the orbit, what's led after several "Lifting Body" concepts, to the "Shuttle Transportation System" (STS) or short: "Space Shuttle".

Also the oil crisis, that you mentioned, has made it's impact to US economy, so the NASA suffered a big budget cut and a manned mission to Mars was now far away, because the budget was too short to develop a space ship, new engines and the infrastructure to build a rocket, which could be used to bring a man to Mars and back.

In real, NASA started to cooperate with ESA to develop a new rocket, capsule and so on, to bring man back to Moon and start a mission to Mars in the next 20 years (not sure about that, but I takes some time). That's for the sharing of costs and using the know-how of technologies that already created.

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Re: What will be after Road to the Moon?

Post by Sabratha » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:55 am

hyphon wrote:Except for the last mission just USAF/USN pilots landed on the moon, so the scientific goals weren't that lucrative to invest billions of dollars into more missions and the weren't more political goals to achieve.

The U.S.S.R. started to develope space stations, so there was no real race to Moon/Mars.
The USA started to think about a new way to get (military) satellites cheap into the orbit, what's led after several "Lifting Body" concepts, to the "Shuttle Transportation System" (STS) or short: "Space Shuttle".

Also the oil crisis, that you mentioned, has made it's impact to US economy, so the NASA suffered a big budget cut and a manned mission to Mars was now far away, because the budget was too short to develop a space ship, new engines and the infrastructure to build a rocket, which could be used to bring a man to Mars and back.
All very, very true. I think that had the soviets moved along the Chelomyei/Glushko idea line and came up with a moon landing in the early 70s, things might have been different. As far as moon base projects were concerned, the ussr was imho more prepared, since there were plans and ideas floating around since the early 60s.
Thus a soviet moon landing in let's say 1971 could have possibly sparked a "moon base race".

Either way this is all hypotethical stuff, but the soviet moon base plan was a definite possible alternative that th soviet planners had and evaluated in great detail. Glushko in particular tried to push forward his own moon base plan in the mid 70s. In the end both the space station program as well as the incredibly costly Buran (the military forced Glushko to pursue a space shuttle program for no good reason) caused him to abandon his vulkan (larger proton derivative) rocket program, which doomed the moon base plans.

If you guys feel like reading more, here's a nice and not too long description of Glushko's 70s plans.
http://falsesteps.wordpress.com/2012/09 ... n-glushko/

Its entirely outside the scope of episode 1, but I think it would make a good episode 2 alternative to the Buran or Mir projects.

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Re: What will be after Road to the Moon?

Post by hyphon » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:38 am

@Sabratha: Nice link. Was very interesting to read. The article reminds me on names like Tsiolkovsky and Korolev.
I wonder what if those two men worked together with von Braun in one space agency. The prodigy Tsiolkovsky, who thought first to use rockets to get into space and calculated all the needed power's, without having any engineer training. Korolev, who developed rockets from nearly out of the nothing. Von Braun, who created the most powerful engine of all times (Rockedyne F-1/Saturn V) and the first working liquid fuel engine that reached space ("Aggregat IV" or better known under it's military PR name "V2", max. height was around 85-86 km).

A small colony on the moon Europe?
Space hotel's like in 2001 - A Space Odyssey?
Mining project's in the Asteroid Belt?
Maybe Clarke's Space Elevator?

Who knows.

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Re: What will be after Road to the Moon?

Post by woody4077 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:23 pm

but would a space elevator be practical?
with everything thats already in orbit not to mention gravitational forces
and any geological forces on the earth a space elevator maybe a work of sci-fi for now at l;east

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Re: What will be after Road to the Moon?

Post by N_Molson » Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:27 pm

I wonder what if those two men worked together with von Braun in one space agency. The prodigy Tsiolkovsky, who thought first to use rockets to get into space and calculated all the needed power's, without having any engineer training. Korolev, who developed rockets from nearly out of the nothing. Von Braun, who created the most powerful engine of all times (Rockedyne F-1/Saturn V) and the first working liquid fuel engine that reached space
Sadly, people of exception like those tend to have extremely strong personalities. Even within the Soviet Union, Korolev and Glushko (famous engine designer) refused to cooperate for an old rivalry affair. The best to do with those people is to provide them hardware, funds, personel, and let the magic happen...

@Hyphon : I know space history (very) well, but BASPM obviously takes place in a "better universe", where there is much more cooperation between states and less swords rattles. Without a rival USSR, no "Moon Race" and no absolute necessity "to land a man on the Moon and to return him safely by the end of the decade". With more time and less rushing, the Apollo/Saturn stack could be designed from the beginning as a mean of manned interplanetary exploration (for Mars landing operations and why not a Venus orbital mission). The plans for that really existed, it was only a matter of political will.
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Re: What will be after Road to the Moon?

Post by Sabratha » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:30 pm

hyphon wrote:@Sabratha: Nice link. Was very interesting to read. The article reminds me on names like Tsiolkovsky and Korolev.
I wonder what if those two men worked together with von Braun in one space agency.
Thanks.

Tsiolkovsky died in 1935 when von Barun was still a student and Korolev was just a relatively young designer at an aircraft bureau who worked on heavy bombers (TB-3 bomber in particular). So Tsiolkovsky was of a vastly different generation than they were.
As for cooperation, I really think the key here is what sort of political and economic system would they work under? I'm pretty certain von Broun would have never made such a big name for himself if he worked in the USSR. Von Braun german rocket scientist peers who were left on the eastern side of the iron curtain were pretty much all moved away from rocket design work by the mid 50s. They worked actively in the ussr in the 40s, but were gradually replaced by younger soviet personnel like Korolev and his peers.

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Re: What will be after Road to the Moon?

Post by Sabratha » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:34 pm

N_Molson wrote:The Apollo/Saturn stack could be designed from the beginning as a mean of manned interplanetary exploration (for Mars landing operations and why not a Venus orbital mission). The plans for that really existed, it was only a matter of political will.
Call me a pessimist, but I think that without teh cold war, there would never had been such a rapid and intense space exploration program. Perhaps without the cold war we would have a moon landing only in the 80s or 90s? Or maybe we would still be just conducting unmanned lunar probe exploration?

Manned space missions were costly and from a scientific point of view not too profitable given the cost and research time spent. One of the main reasons why we had a moon landing in the 60s was the space race and the american fear of being beaten again in said race by the USSR.

With no cold war tension, we would see less space spending, and generally imho much more emphasis placed on unmanned missions and probes. More "scientific bang" for the buck.

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Re: What will be after Road to the Moon?

Post by Codz » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:38 am

Firstly, N_Molson is very aware of basic space race history, and the political motives behind it. Secondly, reality is irrelevant in a game where individual space agencies are replaced by one "Global" space agency. That fact alone nullifies the Cold War tension and political motives.

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