Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

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MajVonRyan
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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by MajVonRyan » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:07 am

manoi wrote:you can download the stalingrad mod here : http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/mo ... ads&cid=25
If you want to see some features and previews, it's there http://www.closecombatseries.net/Hosted ... index.html
The mod works only with the original CC5.
Hi Manoi,

Thank you for the website information :D :D :D

MajVonRyan
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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by MajVonRyan » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:36 am

Wodin wrote:Manoi as I mentioned over at Matrix it appears that the new game is to scale going by the screenshots.
Hi Wodin,

I could not find a link to the screnshots on the Matrix website, any chance of postings the link? :D :D

manoi
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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by manoi » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:43 am


MajVonRyan
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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by MajVonRyan » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:15 am

Hi Manoi,

Thank you for posting the link to the screenshots :D

In a previously post (25/04/12) you indicated that 'the original scale was too small and that we finally play with soldiers, vehicles and even maps that are not at the right scale (5 pixels by meter).' Could you post a couple of your own (mod) screenshots and advise what scale you would suggest for the new (3d) Close combat game :D :D

MajVonRyan
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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by MajVonRyan » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:42 am

VonRyan wrote:
manoi wrote:you can download the stalingrad mod here : http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/mo ... ads&cid=25
If you want to see some features and previews, it's there http://www.closecombatseries.net/Hosted ... index.html
The mod works only with the original CC5.
Hi Manoi,

Thank you for the website information :D :D :D
Hi Manoi,

Great website, I will download your mod in the next few days.

I am glad I purchased CC5 many years ago on sale, just hope it will work on Windows 7!

manoi
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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by manoi » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:19 pm

VonRyan wrote:
In a previously post (25/04/12) you indicated that 'the original scale was too small and that we finally play with soldiers, vehicles and even maps that are not at the right scale (5 pixels by meter).' Could you post a couple of your own (mod) screenshots and advise what scale you would suggest for the new (3d) Close combat game :D :D
In the Stalingrad mod the maps were drawn with a scale of 5 pixels per meter, the vehicles had a scale of 10 pixels per meter and the soldiers 12 pixels per meter : as you can see I had only increased the size of the vehicles.
I would say my favourite scale is 10 pixels per meter as I like to see some details on vehicles and maps. But what you win in details and graphics, you loose in distances in the maps : actually the size of a map is 4800 * 4800 pixels or 960 * 960 meters, with the a scale of 10 pixels per meter will the maps only be 480 * 480 meters :s
But this problem of scale is mainly a problem for mapmodders (in any case, it was a problem for me) : I don't think that the most players realize that the distances (that you can see with the LOS line tool in the game) don't match the size of the grafics...
I think that with the new 3D engine they will have a single scale.

MajVonRyan
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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by MajVonRyan » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:02 am

Manoi wrote: In the Stalingrad mod the maps were drawn with a scale of 5 pixels per meter, the vehicles had a scale of 10 pixels per meter and the soldiers 12 pixels per meter : as you can see I had only increased the size of the vehicles. I would say my favourite scale is 10 pixels per meter as I like to see some details on vehicles and maps. But what you win in details and graphics, you loose in distances in the maps : actually the size of a map is 4800 * 4800 pixels or 960 * 960 meters, with the a scale of 10 pixels per meter will the maps only be 480 * 480 meters :s But this problem of scale is mainly a problem for mapmodders (in any case, it was a problem for me) : I don't think that the most players realize that the distances (that you can see with the LOS line tool in the game) don't match the size of the grafics... I think that with the new 3D engine they will have a single scale.
[/quote]

Hi Manoi,
So the greater the detail, the smaller the map size; and the size of the map limits the use of long range weapons. I hope the new 3D engine uses a scale which allows finer detail without losing map size :D

Wodin
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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by Wodin » Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:43 pm

VonRyan, Also the smaller the map scale the more you see of it on screen, especially back when CC series came out when most had 15 inch monitors.

So for a topdown game small scale map is a good thing it means you get a bigger picture and not have to keep scrolling everywhere trying to see where everything is and where the enemy is. These days with bigger monitors we can up the scale in pixels, however if you go to big then topdown just wouldn't be viable, the reason CC work so well from top down was because you say an awful lot of the map on your screen, try going topdown in some 3D games and you hardly see any real estate.

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by MajVonRyan » Tue May 01, 2012 10:20 am

Wodin wrote:VonRyan, Also the smaller the map scale the more you see of it on screen, especially back when CC series came out when most had 15 inch monitors.

So for a topdown game small scale map is a good thing it means you get a bigger picture and not have to keep scrolling everywhere trying to see where everything is and where the enemy is. These days with bigger monitors we can up the scale in pixels, however if you go to big then topdown just wouldn't be viable, the reason CC work so well from top down was because you say an awful lot of the map on your screen, try going topdown in some 3D games and you hardly see any real estate.
Hi Wodin,
Thanks for the information, I played board games (Squad Leader & ASL :D ) before moving to computer games and would rather use a smaller map with greater detail, as it gives me the same feeling of being in the game. Close Combat has been the closest game I have found to replace the feel of playing Squad Leader. However, the detail has been too small. I am not looking to purchase war games that are all flash as there are many games like that, and they do not hold my interest, so I am hoping that 3D means more detail without the lost of too much map. I still wonder why companies like Slitherine or Matrix do not release a squad leader game as they have a good foundation in Close combat :D :D

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by MajVonRyan » Tue May 01, 2012 10:20 am

Double post
Last edited by MajVonRyan on Wed May 02, 2012 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

MrsWargamer
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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by MrsWargamer » Tue May 01, 2012 11:45 am

Things that make a game work, and things that make a game NOT work.

As Close Combat is not turn based you don't have time to dick around on decisions.

The main reason CC worked, was it was possible to 'see' the whole game while running it. I suspect that is the heart of Wodin's interests. Another factor was you didn't have more units to control than was possible for the human to keep track of. A juggler can juggle several balls in the air, but ask them to juggle 100 just because you can make 100 and they will simply look at you as if you were nuts. The moment CC crosses a very real boundary of the realistic to expect of a human attention threshold, you end up with problems that don't need to be there.

Precisely why for instance, does a game of 'close combat' need to be about 'close combat' between what is a couple of companies of troops when it could just as well be a couple of platoons of troops eh?

Just because the computer can handle the data, is no reason to put as much load on it as it can handle, if the human in front of the screen can't get any real use out of it.

Team Assault is still new, it is still growing and solving it's problems, but if Close Combat fails to master itself, it might really be possible to see TA eclipse the 'fun factor' for some with it instead of staying with CC. All CC has that makes it unique is the lack of turns, which is big for some, but certainly not enough to make the game 'more real'.

As Panthers in the Fog is supposed to be using the same engine, I don't expect miracles here. In fact I am sure some will wonder, what's wrong with just continuing to play the CC that is already doing the Bulge. I'm mostly interested to see where the designers go AFTER Panthers in the Fog to be honest.

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by Wodin » Tue May 01, 2012 10:15 pm

DSWargamer exactly, you mentioned the amount of units, thats my worry with PITF, more units more stress.

I hope the don't pile on the amount of units in the new engine game either. Keep it manageable.

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by SteveMcClaire » Tue May 01, 2012 11:41 pm

It's true that adding more units to a real-time game becomes impractical after a point. And we don't want Close Combat to become a game where you lasso piles of units and send them forward as cannon fodder because there's no time (or it's too tedious) to consider them individually. For Panthers in the Fog, having the maximum number of units will be the exceptional rather than the rule. Typically you'll have more like 12-15 units.

For the follow-on 3D title (going to have to introduce some sort of code name for this I guess, since it is getting a lot of discussion!) we're not going to abandon the current style of game play. So you can expect roughly the same scale and the same number of units to manage.

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by Wodin » Wed May 02, 2012 7:45 am

Steve, again I have total trust in you and the team which is something I can't say about many game developments. I know your all hardcore CC fans, more so than most so it's in good hands. I expect all our worries are yours too and you've already thought about all these possible issues.

Finally if I remember properly Bridge to Far hand a more in depth moral system as well as more things could effect individual soldiers. Can we have that back and more in PITF and the new engine game, things like dazed, unconscious,clearing jam, reloading, cleaning gun, drinking fro canteen, picking nose (nothing wrong in adding some humour that also makes a soldier more real, however it would have to be a very rare event and only play when not in action but waiting in ambush say),cautious,nervous,scared,panicked,berserk,fixing weapon, weapon broke, searching for weapon, changing weapon, fell over, blown over, leg wound, arm wound, bandaging wound. All these things would add so much immersion to the game and and bring about the connection to your pixeltruppen. No need to have a graphic effect for many as CC didn't anyway, just the writing next to the name. Obviously certain things will mean a soldier doesn't move for a bit or is slower than the others (knocked over, leg wound). I always feel it was this sort of thing in CC2 that made the game so special at the time, every little pixeltruppen felt like an individual. I'm sure it started to be streamlined and cut back abit over the series.

Finally as mentioned before bring Inf survivability back to CC2 levels. Otherwise I probably wont buy as for me thats the No1 buying factor.

One last thing, another major plus CC has over it's rivals was the speed of gameplay, it never felt rushed or fast, it always felt nice and slow and methodical interspersed with intense long last firefights. That was again the beauty of the series. Sadly the long firefights started to become less long due to your pixeltruppen dieing easier.

Just thought of something else, even though it's in 2D I'd make the map in scale to the troops and tanks etc but don't increase the pixel size than it is at the moment with regards to tanks and soldiers, otherwise the game wont look like CC and again you'll be scaling it all up so you will see less of the map. The current scale of the soldiers and tanks in PITF look perfect to me, we don't need highly detailed 3D soldier models that are three times the size they are now, it would result in losing map space on screen and probably change the look to much from the current CC design.
Last edited by Wodin on Wed May 02, 2012 8:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by Wodin » Wed May 02, 2012 7:59 am

Von Ryan I'm not really talking about detail per se but about how much of the map you see on the screen at any one time without having to scroll around. Many 3D games just don't work from top down view due to them obviously being made to play in the no top down view (can't think of a better term). Where as CC being top down meant the whole design was focused into that viewpoint and you can tell. Now with bigger screens I'm sure we can still get to see the same amount of the battle field as we do in CC but have it more to scale and in a 3D engine so LOS is less abstract).

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by MajVonRyan » Wed May 02, 2012 9:20 am

Hi Wodin,

Thanks, that makes more sense.

manoi
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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by manoi » Wed May 02, 2012 11:49 am

Wodin wrote:Von Ryan I'm not really talking about detail per se but about how much of the map you see on the screen at any one time without having to scroll around. Many 3D games just don't work from top down view due to them obviously being made to play in the no top down view (can't think of a better term). Where as CC being top down meant the whole design was focused into that viewpoint and you can tell. Now with bigger screens I'm sure we can still get to see the same amount of the battle field as we do in CC but have it more to scale and in a 3D engine so LOS is less abstract).
from the fact that it will be a 3D engine, I think that playing from a top down view will be only an option but that you will also be able to play from another view.

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by Wodin » Wed May 02, 2012 12:01 pm

Manoi they have stated no roving rotating adjustable camera, it will be designed in a 3D engine but top down which is the best way I think for CC. Most likely zoom in or zoom out. Not one game in 3D has played well top down cos it wasn't designed that way. This way we keep the CC feel and see all the map etc etc. It's exactly the way I'd design it. If they went along with something like APOS it would no longer have the CC feel anymore and may aswell be just another 3D WW2 RTS. Also why copy that design when you will be then going into competition with Achtung Panzer. Keep it 3D top down.

Quote from Steve "We are carefully considering the issues with moving Close Combat to a 3D engine, and will be working to find the right balance. The goal is to get as much of the benefit of 3D (and being able to see the lay of the land) as we can without losing the 'situational clarity' that the current top-down 2D camera view gives you. There probably won't be a free-flying / rotating camera, for example. Or at least not by default."

Trying to find a quote from someone else who said it will be top down but can't find it. They said something about you maybe able to angle the camera a little to see the lay of the land but that wasn't definite. Think it might have been Erik.

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by MrsWargamer » Wed May 02, 2012 1:11 pm

It sounds like the term '3d' really needs to be REALLY seriously taken into consideration here.

They make a point of calling the engine Panther Games developed 'Pausable continuous time' for a good reason I think. It intentionally steps away from the term real time as often associated with 'rts aka real time strategy' which to some of us is synonomous with piece of crap excuse of a game.

I consider Battle Academy a 3d title, but with a different take on '3d' as it is really more of a different experience.

If the plan is to design Panthers in the Fog as a top down viewed game, then calling it 2d with depth might actually be more or less less damaging to your interests. Because no matter how 3d dimensional you make a top down viewed game, it will always be regarded as 2d in the mind of the gamer.

Calling something 2d is not a crime, and calling something 3d does not make it sound better either.

We wargamers will in the end refuse any game only if we don't think the simulation is credible. And there are a lot of terms that cause mis representations that are eventually hard to remove.

Battle Academy is likely one of the best games I have played in 10 years or more. One of the most challenging. One of the best multiplayer experiences I have ever had on computer. And yet so many label it 'cartoony' and instantly it is written off as not serious. Cartoon is a word assumed to be associated with children in North America. I have fought over this term simply as it does great harm to the game. The art style means nothing.

Thus, applying poorly chosen labels to Panthers in the Fog might be doing it a lot more harm than you think.

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by MajVonRyan » Wed May 02, 2012 2:03 pm

DSWargamer wrote: "....Precisely why for instance, does a game of 'close combat' need to be about 'close combat' between what is a couple of companies of troops when it could just as well be a couple of platoons of troops eh? Just because the computer can handle the data, is no reason to put as much load on it as it can handle, if the human in front of the screen can't get any real use out of it.
I would be happy if I could play Close Combat from Squad level up to a reinforced company (couple of tanks, Sp/AT guns) depending on the mission. I would like the new Close Combat game to include random battles eg: a mission generator and compaigns (DLC add-ons of different areas 'war zones').

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