Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

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Wodin
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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by Wodin » Wed May 02, 2012 3:54 pm

DS it will be using a 3D engine which helps with LOS and terrain features. SO in effect it is 3D but top down. Maybe they should just say top down 3D, as it will be neither 2D nor how someone is going to imagine a 3D game will look like.

I do hop to god they stick with their current plan to keep it top down and design it from that viewpoint. I imagine there will be a vocal bunch of future buyers who will want to see it like APOS, however for me that would really take away the whole CC feel. and it will have to be very special for me to consider buying into it. There current plans sound like it's old CC in a more High fidelity engine and will keep i hope the general CC aesthetic. Change it to much as I said then it may aswell just be a new 3D WW2 RTS rather than a evolutionised CC game.

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by berndN » Wed May 02, 2012 4:01 pm

DSWargamer wrote:It sounds like the term '3d' really needs to be REALLY seriously taken into consideration here.

They make a point of calling the engine Panther Games developed 'Pausable continuous time' for a good reason I think. It intentionally steps away from the term real time as often associated with 'rts aka real time strategy' which to some of us is synonomous with piece of crap excuse of a game.

I consider Battle Academy a 3d title, but with a different take on '3d' as it is really more of a different experience.

If the plan is to design Panthers in the Fog as a top down viewed game, then calling it 2d with depth might actually be more or less less damaging to your interests. Because no matter how 3d dimensional you make a top down viewed game, it will always be regarded as 2d in the mind of the gamer.

Calling something 2d is not a crime, and calling something 3d does not make it sound better either.

We wargamers will in the end refuse any game only if we don't think the simulation is credible. And there are a lot of terms that cause mis representations that are eventually hard to remove.

Battle Academy is likely one of the best games I have played in 10 years or more. One of the most challenging. One of the best multiplayer experiences I have ever had on computer. And yet so many label it 'cartoony' and instantly it is written off as not serious. Cartoon is a word assumed to be associated with children in North America. I have fought over this term simply as it does great harm to the game. The art style means nothing.

Thus, applying poorly chosen labels to Panthers in the Fog might be doing it a lot more harm than you think.
Don't confuse Panthers in the Fog with the next CC style game. Panthers in the Fog will use a modified CC LSA engine and because of this will be a 2D title. They are developing a new one one which will be released after Panthers in the Fog that will use 3D and a different game 'engine' based on Unity (?).

Matrix/Slitherine need to find a 'codename' for this title ;)

Wodin
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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by Wodin » Wed May 02, 2012 4:07 pm

bernD he isn't. The new CC game (the one after this one) will be designed as top down 3D. Which is as I said before exactly how I'd have made it. The 3D helps with LOS and makes the while thing with regards to terrain especially more hi fi and less abstract.

They said it maybe possible to angle the camera but that hasn't been decided yet. I hope they stick to their guns with this design. Going 3D with full camera controls will one make the game really impossible to play from a top down perspective (like all other 3D games that weren't designed to be played from a top down perspective when you try and play it from that viewpoint it just doesn't work well). Also it would for me take away the CC feel.

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by SteveMcClaire » Wed May 02, 2012 4:52 pm

Yes, there is a distinction to be drawn about the term '3D'. The CC-next (there, I invented a shorthand :D) release will be created using a 3D engine, but it will still be largely the same game as the current Close Combat. The term '3D game' is sort of vague, and I guess everyone has different ideas of what this will mean. But for CC-next it means "Close Combat that doesn't look flat." We'll get a lot of graphic improvements just going to a 3D engine, but what I really want to do is give the player a much improved understanding of the terrain. As it stands in the current (2D) engine this is really difficult to do, and we are limited in the amount of type of elevation changes we can have on the maps as a result.

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by berndN » Wed May 02, 2012 8:08 pm

berndN wrote:
DSWargamer wrote:
...

If the plan is to design Panthers in the Fog as a top down viewed game, then calling it 2d with depth might actually be more or less less damaging to your interests. Because no matter how 3d dimensional you make a top down viewed game, it will always be regarded as 2d in the mind of the gamer.

...
Don't confuse Panthers in the Fog with the next CC style game. Panthers in the Fog will use a modified CC LSA engine and because of this will be a 2D title. They are developing a new one one which will be released after Panthers in the Fog that will use 3D and a different game 'engine' based on Unity (?).

Matrix/Slitherine need to find a 'codename' for this title ;)
This part was the reason for my reply. Panthers in the Fog use a CC 2D engine. Mainly the CC5/CC LSA one.
The CC-next
(
SteveMcClaire wrote:Yes, there is a distinction to be drawn about the term '3D'. The CC-next (there, I invented a shorthand :D) release will be created using a 3D engine, but it will still be largely the same game as the current Close Combat. The term '3D game' is sort of vague, and I guess everyone has different ideas of what this will mean. But for CC-next it means "Close Combat that doesn't look flat." We'll get a lot of graphic improvements just going to a 3D engine, but what I really want to do is give the player a much improved understanding of the terrain. As it stands in the current (2D) engine this is really difficult to do, and we are limited in the amount of type of elevation changes we can have on the maps as a result.
will be the real new one.

I would love to discuss the CC-next but also would love to have a last CC5 / CC LSA one :)

Wodin
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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by Wodin » Wed May 02, 2012 9:04 pm

@bernnd Whoops sorry mate I see what you mean. I though you were wondering why we were saying the new CCNE (Close Combat New Engine) OR CC3d was going to be top down. Again sorry, I think DS was getting confused.

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by MajVonRyan » Thu May 03, 2012 11:37 am

SteveMcClaire wrote: "...But for CC-next it means "Close Combat that doesn't look flat." We'll get a lot of graphic improvements just going to a 3D engine, but what I really want to do is give the player a much improved understanding of the terrain.
Sounds good

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by MrsWargamer » Thu May 03, 2012 12:50 pm

I suppose the spirit of my comments remains intact, but I might have been applying them to Panthers in the Fog incorrectly when it is likely they should have been aimed at CC Next (sounds like a suitable catch phrase term).

It is good the 3d engine is being used to render depth but not to make it just another form of Combat Mission in real time. I don't hate the 3d in Combat Mission as it is down in WEGO and that means time pressure is not an issue. When I had originally heard Combat Mission was originally desired as a real time engine I had to laugh. As a real time design, Combat Mission would have been a dud, it was the WEGO that made it a success (and regardless of the denials, we all know this to be true).

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by MajVonRyan » Mon May 07, 2012 9:53 am

DSWargamer wrote: 'It is good the 3d engine is being used to render depth but not to make it just another form of Combat Mission in real time "
I agreed :D

I have played real time games, but prefer games that make me think, plan and out think my opponents , well some of the time :roll: , not just a click fest :(
Don't get me wrong, a enjoy Space Marines and other good games :P , but I always return to my favorites, Close Combat, WITE, Panzer Corps and other Matrix / slitherine games! :D

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by MajVonRyan » Tue May 08, 2012 1:47 pm

Since - Close Combat in it's present form will be replaced by the CCNew. It is possible to release a Close Combat game design module based on the old code after Panthers in the Fog. A game designer which combines all the different armies, equipement and from 1939 to 1945+, where gamers pick the options they want to play: missions, campaigns, maps, country etc.

For example, gamers could select:
A map or maps.
Number of battles: small, medium or large.
Types of battle: Defence, attack or combination of both.
Force (size): small, medium or large - & country: American, British, German, Russian etc.
Time frame: 1939, 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944, 1945 or say 1941 to 1945 etc.
Be able to add gamers mods etc.

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by SteveMcClaire » Tue May 08, 2012 4:47 pm

VonRyan wrote:Since - Close Combat in it's present form will be replaced by the CCNew. It is possible to release a Close Combat game design module based on the old code after Panthers in the Fog. A game designer which combines all the different armies, equipement and from 1939 to 1945+, where gamers pick the options they want to play: missions, campaigns, maps, country etc...
That's very cool idea and sort of along the lines of the CC Development Kit idea that has been kicked around a few times. It is certainly something we'll consider going forward, though I think resources are pretty much locked into the announced titles at this point (Panthers in the Fog and then CC-Next).

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by MajVonRyan » Tue May 22, 2012 2:25 pm

SteveMcClaire wrote:
VonRyan wrote:Since - Close Combat in it's present form will be replaced by the CCNew. It is possible to release a Close Combat game design module based on the old code after Panthers in the Fog. A game designer which combines all the different armies, equipement and from 1939 to 1945+, where gamers pick the options they want to play: missions, campaigns, maps, country etc...
That's very cool idea and sort of along the lines of the CC Development Kit idea that has been kicked around a few times. It is certainly something we'll consider going forward, though I think resources are pretty much locked into the announced titles at this point (Panthers in the Fog and then CC-Next).
Thanks for the feedback Steve, I also like the idea of a CC development kit concept, it would be good if CC gamers could make their own campaigns or add their own units, maps etc. I wonder if it would be possible to develop mission or campaigns in other areas and time of conflict such as Korean, Vietnam and maybe Iraq if it is not a no go area of war gaming.

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by SteveMcClaire » Tue May 22, 2012 3:54 pm

VonRyan wrote:Thanks for the feedback Steve, I also like the idea of a CC development kit concept, it would be good if CC gamers could make their own campaigns or add their own units, maps etc. I wonder if it would be possible to develop mission or campaigns in other areas and time of conflict such as Korean, Vietnam and maybe Iraq if it is not a no go area of war gaming.
This is already possible, to a large extent. There is a fairly active mod-making community for CC that has created some whole-game mods (new campaign, units, maps, etc) already. The engine is quite open to modding, it's just that it is not designed to be a campaign creation kit per se, so there are limitations and potential pitfalls.

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by MikeAP » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:56 am

The silent tanks of Close Combat have always bothered me.

I really hope that gets changed, if not in this release, in future releases.

Would also love to see a remake of CC Modern Tactics. I'm getting bored of WW2. Something modern to play would be nice.

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by MajVonRyan » Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:00 pm

SteveMcClaire wrote: This is already possible, to a large extent. There is a fairly active mod-making community for CC that has created some whole-game mods (new campaign, units, maps, etc) already. The engine is quite open to modding, it's just that it is not designed to be a campaign creation kit per se, so there are limitations and potential pitfalls.
Hi Steve, do you recommend any good website to visit re: community mod-making?

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by SteveMcClaire » Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:48 pm

The forum on www.matrixgames.com is fairly active with mod makers who can answer your questions.

www.closecombatseries.net is fairly active third-party web site. I believe a fair number of mod makers hang out there but my impression is that they're primarily interested in the older games.

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by MajVonRyan » Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:45 am

SteveMcClaire wrote:The forum on http://www.matrixgames.com is fairly active with mod makers who can answer your questions.

http://www.closecombatseries.net is fairly active third-party web site. I believe a fair number of mod makers hang out there but my impression is that they're primarily interested in the older games.
Thanks Steve

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by JackN » Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:56 pm

Till a couple years ago I bought my pc gameplay and knew what was new in the market for pc games.
I played sudden strike, soldier, blitzkrieg and the last years company of heroes. All very good.
I forgot that in the earlier days I playedwith much pleasure command and conquer. I think I bought the first 3 or 4 titles then.
A friend of mine was enthusiastic about panzer corps, because he still loved turn based games I will give that a try to.
But I was surprised to read that the close combat series still exist.
I looked at the trailers from the cross of iron title and panthers in the fog and saw the news about this new title gateway to Caen. It is still possible to buy the first two, but they are quite expensive I must admit, the panzer corps title was much cheaper.
Maybe it is no good question, but it is possible that someone has a good advise for me, shall I still purchase those two earlier titles (eastern front is always interesting to me) or shall I wait for gateway to Caen.???????? A new game, more modern, etc.

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by JackN » Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:47 pm

I was curious if I still had those older titles and yes, they were still there somewhere in the back of one of my bookcases. I bought four of them, the last one was the Ardennen offensive (2000) and the Russian campaign was from the year 97/98. Are they still workable? And is the update 2011 good enough to buy the title again?

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Re: Close combat - Panthers in the Fog

Post by SteveMcClaire » Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:16 pm

The original release Close Combat games from 2000 can sometimes be gotten to run properly on modern versions of Windows, but it usually takes some monkeying with compatibility settings and such.

The Matrix Games releases have been updated for current versions of Windows. The latest of those (Panthers in the Fog, and soon Gateway to Caen) also have updated 32-bit graphics for a better / sharper look.

Price point is something everyone has to decided for themselves, I guess. The older Matrix Games releases are occassionally on sale -- you could keep an eye out for a sales event and see if you can get them at a somewhat lower price.

Steve

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