Diplomacy and Economy

Sovereignty is a turn-based fantasy strategy game for the PC. It combines a kingdom management campaign game with a general's level tactical battle game.

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Rhod1an
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Diplomacy and Economy

Post by Rhod1an » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:30 pm

The game is very fun so far. I am really enjoying the combat, artwork, and lore and the warfare aspect of the game. Can't wait to see how the game develops. I did have a few questions, are there any possible plans to further enhance or add more options/variety for diplomacy? Perhaps maybe even adding extra dialogue or responses that are nation/race specific? Regarding the economy, are they are any plans to add construction/buildings? Such as building forts, walls, taverns, market places, maybe even some unique special buildings for each nation? I feel that would go far in adding more variety and depth to the economic aspect of the game. I am also wondering if there are plans to possibly add in random events that can occur during a playthrough or even some race/nation specific events? Again, great game so far.

Jekky
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Re: Diplomacy and Economy

Post by Jekky » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:32 pm

Both diplomacy and economy are in our list of things to target for improvement - can't say at this stage exactly what form those improvements will take though.

Darknaj
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Re: Diplomacy and Economy

Post by Darknaj » Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:43 pm

Please consider including a tool tip breaking down province income. I can't deduce why seemingly identical provinces make different amounts while at the same economical level. A breakdown would be especially nice if we can influence modifiers. :)

Jekky
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Re: Diplomacy and Economy

Post by Jekky » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:21 pm

Not many things affect province income, the only thing of any real note is distance to capitol - your provinces generate less and less income as they get farther from the capitol (as the tax money must be transported over a longer distance, the additional costs of transport and security take their toll on the amount you actually get)

Darknaj
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Re: Diplomacy and Economy

Post by Darknaj » Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:03 pm

Ahhh that makes sense. Is it too much to hope for that there is already a way to relocate your capital?

Jekky
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Re: Diplomacy and Economy

Post by Jekky » Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:12 pm

Your capitol cannot be moved other than by the use of a very specific spell (which is not available to everyone).

Darknaj
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Re: Diplomacy and Economy

Post by Darknaj » Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:59 pm

Fair enough. Thanks.

Rhod1an
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Re: Diplomacy and Economy

Post by Rhod1an » Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:25 pm

Thank you for the reply. Good to know that improvements will be made to diplomacy and the economy. There is so much potential and additions to diplomacy and the economy aspect of the game that can turn this good game into a great one. Time for me to get back to playing the game some more :)

gchristie
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Re: Diplomacy and Economy

Post by gchristie » Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:07 pm

Jekky wrote:Both diplomacy and economy are in our list of things to target for improvement - can't say at this stage exactly what form those improvements will take though.
I like that upgrading provinces is simple. Some complain that this mechanic is overly simplistic. With potentially hundreds of provinces to deal with my head aches at the thought of having to micromanage all of that. I'd rather focus my attention on waging war, since this is for all intents and purposes a war game, not a 4 x game.

This game requires you to make tough choices, at least in the early game, which really appeals to me. You only have 1 – 4 agents depending on your faction, so you have to balance diplomatic priorities. Some factions have very little gold, so deciding between upgrading a province for the long term return on investment versus buying more troops because a faction is massing their forces on your borders is appealing to me. The economics of the game, while again simple, are tricky. I’m finding it challenging to expand and keep my treasury in the black.

My hope is that the devs will avoid the chorus of requests on the forums to engage in feature creep and instead work on the AI and a little more polish so that the GUI is more intuitive (more tool tips please and populate the mini map so it is more useful). I know some will argue that there are ways to eliminate some of the micromanagement but I hope the devs will use their limited time making more needed improvements in the strategic and tactical AI.

That being said, I like what I'm seeing in this game so far, so thanks all involved!

Cheers.
"Despite everything, I believe that people are really good at heart."
~Anne Frank

devoncop
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Re: Diplomacy and Economy

Post by devoncop » Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:12 pm

Just a quick +1 to the above. The map and factions have a real Hyborian feel ant the mechanics are simple to understand but effective. There is real difference in the factions which is a joy to see and I would say please do not over complicate the mechanics whilst hopefully adding flavour and maybe options to toggle random events for both the world and specific factions to add even more flavour and replayability.
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Overall though,even at this stage the game is a gem.

Darknaj
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Re: Diplomacy and Economy

Post by Darknaj » Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:25 pm

I also like the province system. It really reminds me of Birthright and the glory days.

My only grief with it is I would like one step further. The ability to build highways/roads to improve income and army speed, the ability to create forts, bridges, etc. The civilized knight in me wants to tame the wilderness and taunt the barbarian orc horde to come at me.

Breca
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Re: Diplomacy and Economy

Post by Breca » Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:44 am

gchristie wrote:My hope is that the devs will avoid the chorus of requests on the forums to engage in feature creep and instead work on the AI and a little more polish so that the GUI is more intuitive (more tool tips please and populate the mini map so it is more useful). I know some will argue that there are ways to eliminate some of the micromanagement but I hope the devs will use their limited time making more needed improvements in the strategic and tactical AI.
It's good to hear some differing opinions on this. People want to build stuff, without always realizing that with over 250 provinces, this can get to be a repetitive pain. Hence, we opted to go simple on Economy upgrades and let players concentrate more on the fun stuff--war. That said, there are a few targeted places where we'd like to give players the choice of building some select buildings, and that is in the Cradles of Science or the Patrons of the Arts. Currently, those pop up randomly, and that's a bit haphazard. We'll tie those to Capitols, give you a hard choice of what you want to build, so you can create a center of learning of your choice in your capitol, but not have to do it over and over again in outlying provinces.

Good Hunting!

Breca

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Re: Diplomacy and Economy

Post by Emmeric » Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:16 pm

Ouch. The Palatinate even hates you vigorously when you take an evil capital.

It looks like the only viable way to play the game is to never - ever - take capitals.

You would think that the Palatinate would be appreciative of evil being destroyed - not the other way around. This seems... not right.

JorgenCAB
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Re: Diplomacy and Economy

Post by JorgenCAB » Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:13 am

I agree that the game need something above the current economic model, nothing really complex but something in order to consume strategic resources.

Why not use a tried concept from regular boardgames and have you able to combine resources into goods you can gain advantages or just pure money from... the same as building units just other things. Such as combining arts with bear and cloth to gain some economic benefit for a short while in a province. That would make the demand for goods spike real quick and the ideas for resource combinations and effect can be pretty endless and however complex you like yet simple. Bonuses can be anything from military bonuses, diplomacy bonuses or economic bonuses of some sort. Most should be temporary so you need more resources to maintain those effects but also encourage trading resources since the more complex the combinations of different goods the more they benefit you.

At least I would like there to be a real demand for goods other than for building some specific units.

Breca
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Re: Diplomacy and Economy

Post by Breca » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:37 pm

Diplomatic hits for taking capitals are at present overly harsh and will need a balancing pass. We want the weight of the world to start turning against you as you start taking capitals, but right now, pretty much everyone redlines when you take your first capital, and that is not only too harsh, but leaves little left in the way of decision-making after that.

Also, it would be good to have some more variance in opinion as you start taking capitals, based on how those realms felt about the realm you just destroyed. Overall, realms should still start worrying about you as you destroy other realms--even realms they don't particularly like--because they will start seeing you as a destroyer and will start fearing for their own safety. But as mentioned, those feelings should be colored by their relations with the destroyed realm as well, their alignments, and whether they ascribe to the Code of War.

Good Hunting!

Breca

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Re: Diplomacy and Economy

Post by Fysh » Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:40 am

Breca wrote:It's good to hear some differing opinions on this. People want to build stuff, without always realizing that with over 250 provinces, this can get to be a repetitive pain. Hence, we opted to go simple on Economy upgrades and let players concentrate more on the fun stuff--war.
Breca
I'm pleased you are opting to keep the economy simple. Simplicity and abstraction are good; keep the gameplay simple, so the strategic decision-making doesn't get lost among fussy details.

Hopefully you can keep diplomacy simple and partially abstract too. I wouldn't want to have to move diplomats, spies, trade caravans, manually across the map - just decide on the strategy and send them off!

The overall simplicity is one of the things that really appeals to me over games Europa Universalis.

lpgamble
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Re: Diplomacy and Economy

Post by lpgamble » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:55 pm

Breca wrote:Diplomatic hits for taking capitals are at present overly harsh and will need a balancing pass. We want the weight of the world to start turning against you as you start taking capitals, but right now, pretty much everyone redlines when you take your first capital, and that is not only too harsh, but leaves little left in the way of decision-making after that.
This happened to me last night at 2 AM :). I can tell you my initial reactions:
1) They declared war on me (I did reject some feeble peace offerings)
2) What happened with my non-aggression neighbors
3) Who are these guys across the board hating me
4) Whoa everyone is hating on me.

Just first impressions on consequences (I wasn't relationship watching, so no clue what it does currently)
1) rejecting peace attempts should effect neighbors views perhaps points based on how feeble the attempt and existing relations
2) It should matter who initiated the conflict. negative points if negative with aggressor or positive points if positive with defender
3) each province taken should adjust relations
4) border troop deferential should effect relations
5) distance to conflict should reduce the effects, relations with the effected should increase effects
6) if the leading events had more effect then taking the capital could be just a double province penalty.
7) economic countries should provide money / needed resources to losing neighbors with positive relations
8 ) economic countries should increase the market cost of resources for negative countries
9) non-aggrssion pacts should have a chance to diminish the effects

GrayRiders
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Re: Diplomacy and Economy

Post by GrayRiders » Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:21 am

In the current version, I believe the penalty for wiping out a realm is -30 with every "Civilized" nation, dropping by 1 each turn. One possibility is that each realm you destroy gives a smaller penalty, but one that goes away very slowly. Maybe after too many realms are destroyed you get a permanent "warmonger" penalty or something like that (possibly after the second you should get a popup warning you that ? So AI realms get more and more jumpy as a faction starts to steamroll.

For economic development, I agree that having a large list of buildings to construct in each province like in Total War or many 4X games would grow tedious. One thing I do think would be nice is road construction and similar developments, like Darknaj suggested.

I also love JorgenCAB's idea about being able to consume goods for uses other than building troops or selling. As it is, I end up getting a supply of a certain resource I can't use once I take a province with it (or can't use anymore--for insance, my first game as Cor Vilaad and once I had my four Rock Priests and Champions I ended up with a stockpile of gems I didn't need), and end up just pawning it off to the AI.

gchristie
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Re: Diplomacy and Economy

Post by gchristie » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:28 pm

It has been raised elsewhere but I would hope to see some attention given the agents and that they would over time and based on their successful completion of missions gain ability cards as do the leaders. Player can choose between one of two offered cards that will give perks to the agents. Agents are important playing pieces and I think it would be good to give players reasons to become attached to them and be able to groom them a bit. This would be enhanced by the possibility of loosing an agent due to an accident or foul play but only if a player could eventually recruit another agent through some yet to be determined additional game mechanic.

The developers must be fans of this ditty as they gave the agent a number and they took away his name. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iaR3WO71j4
"Despite everything, I believe that people are really good at heart."
~Anne Frank

Slish
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Re: Diplomacy and Economy

Post by Slish » Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:22 pm

Regarding economy and possibly expanding it;

I see various opinions. A lot of people want to build buildings for every province etc.
Another view is keeping it simple and just focus on the wargame.

A good middleground would be to have some unique building(s) for every nation.
A strong point (one of the strongest) of the game is the feel of uniqueness of every nation. Every nation having a different background and specific units. This is very good!
You could expand on it a bit by having every nation be able to build 1 or 2 unique buildings (which needs certain requirements, like restoring the dwarven halls for example). This could be implemented as a campaign goal, or just having a certain province, certain ally etc.
I know I'm a bit vague, but I hope you get the idea? :D

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