Role of Converted Tank Engineering Vehicles

[Konigstiger88]

I've been doing some research on obscure variants of German tanks and came across the Pionierpanzer III. http://guerra-abierta.blogspot.com/2015 ... r-iii.html This converted tank had its turret removed and interior modified to carry engineering tools, as well as a small pontoon. Would such a vehicle simply be a non-combat vehicle in Panzer Corps? Or would it be a transport for bridge engineers and possibly pioneer infantry? If it is used as a transport it could be a bit unbalancing, as it would give german infantry a heavily armored transport (although it wouldn't be much more powerful than the British Kangaroo). Even if it was a combat transport, it could only carry 5 soldiers at most (some being crew). Although the Bren carrier could only carry around 5 soldiers (2-3 as crew), and the american Jeep could only carry 4-5.
So, should it simply be an invisible unit like ammunition carriers or an infantry transport?

[maguro]

Hi Konigstiger88,

I think you bring up a good question. There are probably a lot of different opinions out there concerning how to implement a unit like you are referring to, or whether it's worth adding at all. Just my 2 cents but I don't see why a pioneerpanzer III couldn't represent some kind of Gepanzerte Panzerpionierkompanie. I did something similar with a Sdkfz 251/7. Personally, I like to think of an icon as a representation of a wider range of personnel within the unit and the innate strength it possesses. Thinking this way helps me make sense of units that generally all have a strength of 10, but I'm curious to know others think...

[maguro]

Here's a quick mod of a vanilla Panzer IIIN if you want.

Pioneerpanzer_III.png (43.99 KiB) Viewed 3706 times

[maguro]

Here's another with assault bridge ramps.

Pioneerpanzer_III_2.png (54.33 KiB) Viewed 3690 times

[Konigstiger88]

Excellent icons, thank you. So, you think it should be used as a transport for Pioneers/bridge engineers?

[PeteMitchell]

Excellent icons, thank you. So, you think it should be used as a transport for Pioneers/bridge engineers?

It looks like a bridge-laying tank:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_ ... equent_use

[Konigstiger88]

Excellent icons, thank you. So, you think it should be used as a transport for Pioneers/bridge engineers?

It looks like a bridge-laying tank:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_ ... equent_use

The pictured vehicle only carried a light bridge, the dedicated bridge carriers had a much larger one. The engineering vehicle carried various tools for many jobs, the small bridge being simply one of many.

[maguro]

Excellent icons, thank you. So, you think it should be used as a transport for Pioneers/bridge engineers?

If you are thinking to use it as a transport, PHCAS's 251/7 is a better option IMHO. Then again, there's no iron law saying you can't use it that way. Thanks again for the idea.

It looks like a bridge-laying tank:

Agree, the pics I found often have assault ramps. I'd like to add more stowage but that is really more Guille1434 territory. He always does great job of adding tools and bits to vehicles,

You could have the icon with some pioneers accompanying:

Pioneerpanzer_III_3.png (59.6 KiB) Viewed 3639 times

[Konigstiger88]

The question of the vehicles role boils down to how the germans used it. i can find little specific information aside from "combat engineering." This would include demolitions, construction, repairing roads/bridges, removing obstacles and other similar things. The Panzer III version carried more or less the same equipment as the Sdkfz 251/7 (which could carry additional troops), which leads to the question as to why they converted it. It offered better armor, weight hauling capability and mobility but carried less personnel. I've seen one article that refereed to it as an engineering troop carrier, implying transport. It could however be interpreted (in game terms) as a minesweeper and/or possibly bridge layer.

[maguro]

Admittedly, I know very little about panzer iii conversations. I think you’re reasoning that a pioneerpanzer would be necessary due to better armor over half-tracks etc. makes sense, and would suggest that it was potentially in the line of fire. Again, just a guess. If you have a link to more accurate info, I’d be interested to know more. Regardless of when it actually started to see service, it could show up possibly as an armored engineer upgrade somewhere down the chronological line. I can play around some more with the icon. Any suggestions are welcome.

[maguro]

This page has a picture showing what looks like 3 pioneerpanzer IIIs. As stated on the site, the assault ramp was intended for tank ditches/small obstacles... therefore I can a unit like this possibly having a bonus or extra ability of some kind against fortified terrain rather than (or in addition to??) bridging ability - maybe possessing the traits of the current pioneers only with stronger ground defense due to the presence of pio-pz IIIs. Someone else out there can probably shed more light on its tactical use.
http://guerra-abierta.blogspot.com/2015 ... r-iii.html

[captainjack]

One option is to make it a kangaroo-type armoured transport for the exclusive use of pioneers but give it Beng trait as well so it can also act as a bridge tank.
Option B would be to create a special pioneer unit that can switch to a bridge tank.
To avoid an entire army of tank-borne pioneers, you could award it as a special non-purchase unit.

Reconditioned Panzer IIILs would first become available a few months after the standard Panzer 3L, and by this time an armoured transport of this type probably wouldn't be overpowered.

I have tried French pioneers that can switch to bridgies in my half finished French mod. They are useful but not too powerful, so this armoured bridge transport should add a bit of useful variety without distorting game balance too much.

[PeteMitchell]

Fyi, from the above wiki link:

One of the earliest series-produced examples is the Brückenleger IV, a German AVLB based on the Panzer IV, which entered service with the Wehrmacht in 1940. Twenty were built, but problems of excessive weight limited the vehicle's effectiveness, and eventually all 20 were converted back to tanks.

Not sure that many were actually used as troop and/or tool carriers as the Germans were short on tanks (and later also on armored troop carriers for grenadiers and even trucks and after 1942 short on almost everything, including horses)...

[maguro]

To avoid an entire army of tank-borne pioneers, you could award it as a special non-purchase unit.

If I were going to add it, I'd probably go this route. At least for me, little surprises like are a nice touch in a campaign.

[Konigstiger88]

If used as a transport you could make it expensive, say 200-300 prestige. This would dissuade most players from buying many and reflect the real life tank shortages Germany suffered during the later war.
Alternatively you could add a mine roller to it and use it as a minesweepr tank.

[guille1434]

Hello people!

Nice idea to make a bridgelayer / combat engineer vehicle icon!

As already said here, I would use the Sdkfz 251 variant for the bridge engineers transport vehicle, and the Pionierpanzer III would be an armored bridging unit...

I felt the need to look for images for the Pionierpanzer III and I found two interesting images... One had the two bridging ramps one on each side of the vehicle (like Maguro unit), but the other had both ramps on one side ant the opposite side rack loaded with what looks like wooden planks. So, based on the icon posted by Maguro, I made a modified base icon and mask for this vehicle, and a special template to add the bridging hardware over the top of the vehicle. I made this separate template because I didn't want to hide the very nice detailing Maguro added to the top deck of the Pionierpanzer III (I just slightly enlarged the turret ring cover because it looked a bit small). Besides, I think I improved the detail seen on tracks, wheels and side armor skirts on this icon

With this stuff, you can have a "bare" vehicle and two options to arrange its external stowage (bridging ramps on either side, or both on one side plus wooden planks)!! Three variants in total! I will upload the complete unit pack, with extra template, base icon, mask, etc...

Thanks Maguro for the inspiration!

[guille1434]

Here are some sample icons... The complete pack will be available soon in the "Panzer Corps Support base" thread!

[Konigstiger88]

I found some more information on the Pioneer Panzer III (as it is called). "It was an unallowed field-modification of 3x PzKpfw III Ausf. M, 2x PzKpfw III Ausf. N and 8x PzKpfw III kz ordered by the commander of XXXXVII. PzKrps in July 1943. Eleven belonged to sPzAbt 505 and two to the 2. PzDiv. Armee ordered their reconversion into battle-tanks and forbid further modifications." Another source refers to them as a Pioneer vehicle; "From 1943 some panzer IIIs had their turrets removed to serve as engineer vehicles. These were fitted with equipment racks and could carry small assault bridges. They looked largely the same as maintenance variant and were essentially the same vehicle.

[PeteMitchell]

I found some more information on the Pioneer Panzer III (as it is called). "It was an unallowed field-modification of 3x PzKpfw III Ausf. M, 2x PzKpfw III Ausf. N and 8x PzKpfw III kz ordered by the commander of XXXXVII. PzKrps in July 1943. Eleven belonged to sPzAbt 505 and two to the 2. PzDiv. Armee ordered their reconversion into battle-tanks and forbid further modifications." Another source refers to them as a Pioneer vehicle; "From 1943 some panzer IIIs had their turrets removed to serve as engineer vehicles. These were fitted with equipment racks and could carry small assault bridges. They looked largely the same as maintenance variant and were essentially the same vehicle.

"unallowed field-modification"... oh wow, while it might make sense it's kind of what I thought given how short they were on battle tanks...

[maguro]

Nice looking icon Guille. I think the extra stowage and boards give it the right look.