DLC 42 West 08 - Messina

[Kerensky]

Things to be aware of:
After this scenario, you Italian AUX DO NOT TRANSFER WITH YOUR CORE ANYMORE. Does this bother you? Do you feel they should? Their role is to be evacuated while your main German units 'hold the line' as it were. Without these extra AUX, it would be difficult to hold the line as you would need to move your CORE forces across to Italy while defending the line at the same time.

[Kamerer]

I reached Messina, but there were no auxiliary units to deploy and evacuate, either on the map or in my reserves. They just vanished after Etna (north is the one I played). It appears they disappear one scenario too soon? I posted in the "Bugs" thread, too. From the briefing, it says I'm supposed to deploy, then evacuate both core and aux units.

It sounds like from the briefing, and from what you posted above, that they are supposed to be here for this scenario, correct?

[Kerensky]

During Etna, did you leave your AUX units on the map, or evacuate them to exit hexes before the scenario ended? This is the one caveat of this system, aux units must manually be moved offmap. (Extra reward demands extra effort)
This warning is present during the Etna briefing.
<p><b>Special note: Italian AUXILIARY units that are successfully escorted off map WILL be available for deployment in future scenarios!</b></p>

I tried the scenario again, and as long as I either left Italians in reserve, or moved them offmap before the scenario ended, I was able to deploy them in the Messina scenario without problem.

It's another reason why disbanding away the 'bad' Italians is discouraged. Sure you can do it for prestige injections, but having less Italian units means less units to hold the Etna Line, and less units available to fulfill the Messina evacuation requirement. This requirement is VERY demanding if you only have CORE forces available, which is why keeping your Italian AUX is so important. Perhaps since this is the case, more rewards are warranted for Decisive Victory in Messina, since it meant you didn't disband your extra italians for instant prestige. Say a prototype German unit perhaps. Possibly a jet or a King Tiger. Given the nature of the campaign and future West Front battles, powerful aircraft might be better than the usual uber tank reward more common to East Front DLC.

I assume you left them all behind on the Etna Line, what we might add to help this situation is more evacuation hexes to the map, and put them closer to where the 'frontline' is, that way you don't have to drive them all the way to the East end of the map before the scenario time limit expires.

In addition to more evacuation zones, text warnings that pop up during map play. Something along the lines of:
"Retreat order for Italian forces has been called, move all remaining Italian auxiliaries to designated evacuations zones or we will be forced to leave them behind to their fate!"

Alternatively, instead of disbanding the 'bad' units that you manage to preserve, these units can be left in reserve during Etna and then deployed directly into Messina. So while disbanding them for instant prestige is satisfying in the short run, it turns into a penalty in the long run, namely running into trouble during Messina.

[Kamerer]

Hmm, ok, no I left them on the map - but hold on a minute and let's think it through logically:

So if I am fighting, and winning, to keep the Italians around they have to retreat and leave the battle. This doesn't make sense very much - it seems the incentive is to use them to fight, not hide them two turn movements behind the front line? (the exit hexes would require two or three turns to move them vs. where the battle is taking place). Putting hexes near the battle zone may be tricky, units may need to use them for combat and that would be very awkward/unrealistic.

I understand now the mechanics of how to "keep" the Italians for future use (move them back off-map), but it means that if I want to keep them another scenario, I have to really not integrate them into my battle line. Counterproductive if you see my point?

As it is structured, it does indeed make most sense to disband them for prestige, since their use is really restricted by having to exit early, as well as then requiring you to adapt to their sudden disappearance. I think this needs to be re-worked a bit. I thought it was good to have them deployable and integrated into your forces. Nice switch. Why can't any remaining ones just stay in your reserves without having to retreat unrealistically?

[Kerensky]

It creates a need to spread out your forces, almost a little bit of strategic management. If you deploy all of your 'bonus' units immediately, you used up your entire reserve. That really is the best way to think of these Italian units, they are your reserve, a temporary force to bolster your main troops. Except now, this reserve is spread out and has to be maintained over several scenarios, where previously they have only ever been present for single scenarios.

Putting evacuation points closer to the battle line should help them move off the field in time, while still keeping their ability to add contribution to battle.

[Kamerer]

It creates a need to spread out your forces, almost a little bit of strategic management. If you deploy all of your 'bonus' units immediately, you used up your entire reserve. That really is the best way to think of these Italian units, they are your reserve, a temporary force to bolster your main troops. Except now, this reserve is spread out and has to be maintained over several scenarios, where previously they have only ever been present for single scenarios.

Putting evacuation points closer to the battle line should help them move off the field in time, while still keeping their ability to add contribution to battle.

Yes, that might work, coupled with some better instructions as you mentioned.

Actually though, you only use them ONE scenario, not "several." Other than Etna, you don't get to use them, only collect them and then evacuate them. No big deal - it is interesting and with some better instruction about the need to get them to the mainland eventually, it should work better. A message in the Syracuse and repeated at Etna "Italian units need to survive to reach the mainland of Italy" so people no not to use them as fodder or disband them.

[Kamerer]

8 ) Messina – beta 1

Level: Field Marshal
Prestige - Begin: 2,850. End: 2,850. Net: +0.
Result: DV at 7/16
Replacements: None.

Core changes: No changes.

Problems:

• - It appears game is not counting units ON the mainland to reach the goal – only those landed. I landed my core 12.8cm AA, then decided to move it back. When the game declared a DV, I only had 12 units on the mainland, not 13, though I had indeed landed 13. I also moved the two aux German 12.8cm AA’s over, so I had actually a net movement of only 10 units. Presumably, you might also be able to just land the same few units multiple times? I did not test that.
  - There were 10 UK units in the sea at the NW corner of the map? 4,1 to 4,6 and 5,1 to 5,6.

General impressions/comments:

• - The provided bombers were more than adequate for clearing the DD’s and CL’s. I also deployed an ME 410 and a strong Stuka and they were neutralized in two turns.
  - There was no enemy air to speak of at all – lots of fighters and AA guns mostly idle?
  - The scenario was over very quickly given the existing force arrangements.

[billmv44]

General level. Starting Prestige 1074, ending 34. I used almost all my prestige restrengthening my core forces. No new additions.

One thing I've noticed during deployment is that once you deploy an Italian Aux unit, that's it. You can't move it back into your reserve units and deploy it elsewhere as you can with the core forces. Not sure if that is intentional or not.

This was fairly straight forward. Hold the line with the core and move the Italians across to the mainland. The aux bombers came in handy to eliminate the allied naval forces. Basically, that's the key - don't start moving your forces across until you have a gap in the allied naval presence. DV on 7/16.

The briefing coming in states that you need to evacuate 12 or more ground units. However, the victory conditions mention 13. I moved 11 and got the DV. I have a save file if needed.

Prestige reward for winning seems a little low. Not much chance to buff the prestige by capturing cities.

[monkspider]

Messina
General level
Imported core
DV 7/16

This was a unique and highly enjoyable scenario. I used my level bombers to clear out the straits and then started evacuating my units, sending the Italian units first as suggested. My strategy was to form a defensive line that slowly retreated, holding the advancing Americans at bay and ensuring an orderly withdrawal. Excellent scenario, I would recommend reducing the turn count to perhaps twelve turns since both Bill and I only needed 7.

[ThvN]

DV 7/16, started with 1244 prestige, no expenses during battle. Thanks due to my large Italian AUX force (11 units) this was very easy, even for me. No Allied air units apart from those in the beginning, which was strange, I was expecting the Allied reinforcements to include some planes.

There is something wrong with the victory conditions: I definately did not put more than 10 units across, so I think the Flak guns which are on the mainland are added to the total? And the briefing mentions a different nr. of units to evacuate than the turn splash screen.

Apart from these issues, a nice scenario, a bit too easy perhaps, but I haven't tried it without the AUX units, that would be a lot more difficult, I guess.

[Kamerer]

a nice scenario, a bit too easy perhaps, but I haven't tried it without the AUX units, that would be a lot more difficult, I guess.

I have played it w/o the aux units and it's still pretty easy. First time because I did not realize I had to evacuate the Italians from Etna north.

2nd time, I came via Etna South. Pulling the Italians out of the line the last two turns left jagged holes in my lines, so either i pulled all units back and gave up on a DV, or I took frightful damage. I did the latter. So the next scenario, I disbanded the italians anyway to pay for it.

3rd time, I played with stock core and I wanted the prestige to be able to elite reinforce my units to build them up. So I decided to disband the Italians en masse again!

So, the lesson is I guess that as structured, whether you play with with a strong imported core or the weak stock core to start, the disbanding is still a very attractive option.

[Kerensky]

Big changes coming to this scenario, stay tuned!

[zappel]

Beta1
No italian units, sold them all.
After bombing all naval units it was easy to win scenario without any losses. Restart it in Beta2 to look for the big changes.

[zappel]

Beta2
Hm, I count several times and I think I brought 18 core units from Sicily to the mainland in turn 10 but I get a loss at turn 16.
What did I do wrong?

Changes as far as I notice:
- much more fighters and bombers
- 18 instead of 13 units have to cross
In the first attempt I had only 17 ground units deployed, so I had to restart with 18 ground units (my fault). For this reason I was able to deploy only three instead of four fighters and in combination with more allied air units this scenario is more challenging: a difficult mission.

[Kerensky]

Do you have a screenshot?
Remember that naval and air units do not count.

[zappel]

I counted only ground units, maybe this savegame can help:

(21.09.2012) Messina, Runde 10.pzsav.zip

savegame

(53.12 KiB) Downloaded 305 times

[Kerensky]

At least 18 ground units must now be evacuated. The 4 AUX AD units already on the Italian mainland do count towards this total.
Allies must be held to 2 or less victory hexes controlled, so a defensive line must be maintained in Sicily

The pzloc file needs updating, but this is why you arent getting a DV.

[zappel]

Ahh, so I have to deploy more than 18 ground units.
Damn, I have only 20 ground units in my core and sold the rest, so only 6 units are available to defend Sicily. But even if I had more it will be a difficult decision: more ground units means less air units to deploy. I have to think about my strategy and unit-management.
The first version was much more easier.

[monkspider]

Messina
beta 2
Non-imported core
Ending prestige 1063
Loss??

On one hand, this scenario would probably win the award for beta 2's most improved scenario. While enjoyable the first time around, it felt altogether too easy, this time it was a white-knuckle experience. The buffed Royal Navy and Allied airforce made this much tougher, not to mention the fact that you now have to get eighteen units across, not an trivial feat.

On the other hand however, it seems to be bugged. The decive victory conditions don't state anything about how many objective hexes you need to hold, but I still held five, which would have been at least enough for the marginal victory but instead I get a loss.

I had eleven Italians units, one of which being a Centauro, which gave me a good start for meeting the victory conditions. I formed a solid line with lots of anti-air and artillery. My fighter cover was non-existant for most of the scenario, since I used my fighters to escort my strategic bombers in their quest to sink the Royal Navy. As a result, several units were badly shot up by the Allied bombers. In the end, I managed an orderly withdrawal and got over 20 units onto the mainland.

When this is patched and the exact victory requirements are clarified, it will be a top tier scenario.

Actually, reading Kerensky's post in this thread makes it sound like you are supposed to hold the Allies to two or less objectives? That is too much. I think holding just the five objectives for the marginal AND evacuating eighteen units should be sufficient for the decisive.

[Kamerer]

Messina – Beta 2, stock core

Field Marshall. DV at 12/16 (I think)
Begin pp: 1,500. End: 1,825. Net: +325


Problems:
I had 18 of my units (exclusive of aux AA guns pre-placed) at turn 12 or 13 but no victory. Loss at end.

This is an extremely tricky and demanding scenario; a false move at any point is going to have very bad, cascading results. I had to restart after a loss on first attempt.

2nd attempt, I went to full “Ostfront” mode and just declined any aerial combat unless on a pre-damaged fighter. Moved arty away from spotting from ground or ship, etc. Eventually when I got two aux 12.8 arty over to sicily (turn 10 or so, to reinforce my core 12.8cm) and then no problem. Before then, a real handful. I also didn't attack the Valentines and M4a1s in the first assault wave. I just left them in front of me so the later Churchills, M4a3s, and M18s could not get at me. I had to use every trick to keep this scenario under control with the new air attacks - they are a bit much.

Observations:

• This is a tricky scenario now; the Beta 1 variant was much closer to reality - the Allies did not seriously challenge the flak and fortifications of the Messina strait.
• If it is the scenario design to run heavy Allied ships in the strait, then adding the corresponding shore batteries and Italian surface units which historically threatened and harassed them is needed, or more anti-naval air and aux fighters to escort.
• With 10 Italians to transport, and given slots, it was VERY tight to do this if the scenario is to run to the end despite getting 18 on the mainland earlier. If the allies had unhinged either side of my armor ring around Messina, it would have been over very quickly.
• I brought two core tactical bombers, and it still took the four total bombers, and fire from ground artillery and infantry to finish off the shipping in a timely way.
• The southern aa gun serves little purpose as-is. Unless someone immediately airlifts it to the north, it is caught by the powerful surface units and destroyed in two turns before it can be moved out of range. Give it a truck, or place it one hex further inland so it can be moved away in a timely fashion.

Suggestions:

• Add two aux 12-strength FW-190s to use as bomber escort, freeing yours to cover beach head.
• Pre-place one, or better, two, 12.8cms on Sicily – getting the mainland ones over is not quick, and reduced unit count there.
• Add e-boats, forts, or Italian naval presence to northern exit and around ports if intending to flood straits with shipping.
• Added bonus - be historical and add aa barges. Put a landing craft with a quadvierling with 3 range behind naval mines, one on each shore, around ferry ports.
• Give truck to southernmost AA unit, or pre-pace on airfield, not port.
• Double secret added bonus - secrely invoke "reform units." Then next scenario, evacuated personnel from lost units (if any) can reform their units with purchase of new equipment. Very accurate, and mechanism already in place. Use a briefing notice to inform players who don't now this/didn't use it. They will be really pleased I bet.