Panzer Corps Tournament 2020

[a432]

I officially and publicly ask for restart agiast my opponent tournament leader goose. In like light of new information that we are allowed to exploit the game by preventing trigger mechanics. I had always assumed the use of any cheat or exploit was prohibited, didn't I read a rule about it in the beginning post for the tournament?

[Hansstory]

A432, I don't think you even have to involve Goose. I think Alfredoallu will agree to restart. I played against him and he was a good guy. This anomaly is pretty big, and affects the map massively. All players need to be aware of it for the match to be fair. Who wants to win an unfair matchup? I know I wouldn't and I am sure Alfredo doesn't either. This tournament isn't just about who wins, it is about having fun while competing in a game we love to play and meeting new guys from all over the world. I even know what lifever looks like! And he has some cute kids! I made a new online friend in Woken too. So just talk with Alfredo and I am sure y'all can restart.

[PeteMitchell]

Well, you could even all restart with a new/different map that doesn't have an exploit...

[Lifever]

A432, I don't think you even have to involve Goose. I think Alfredoallu will agree to restart. I am sure y'all can restart.

That's some impressive mediation. Alfredo needs to make up. Checkmate

I even know what lifever looks like! And he has some cute kids!

They look mad as hell since their one and only father got wronged for the second time in this tournament.

---

Some things always could have been handled better - afterwards.
Technically in Italy the rules were changed after the start of the game, also a total no-go. Who asked for that clarification anyways? Any takers?

I think it's equal parts entertainment, sharing and work for Goose - as with most endevaours you do as a hobby without getting paid. If you are not a tad selfish, you are unable to give too.

There's a difference between using a parameter of the map setting and using something outside of the game system (cheating).
BUT information should be divided equal on how those maps work and what needs to be done. That's within organizers responsibility and that's what competitors will always ask for.

In conclusion: I second a432s wish for a restart... it's a failure of proper information in the setting combined with the will to exploit that asymmetry of information on purpose!
Let's not obscure that point, otherwise it would have been disclosed...
Sorry, no "good guys" fairy tale for me at this point.

[goose_2]

Ok I better weigh in on this...

I do not see this as cheating...this is knowing your map and the parameters and exploiting it. What was seen as cheating was reloading turns to garner better results.

I was not aware of the trigger or else I would have informed everyone on this, but my ignorance does not make alfredoallu's knowing cheating

I have awarded alfredoallu with the win on this, but if the 2 of them want to replay the scenario they can certainly do that and let me know the results within the time frame.

I feel bad that this is the direction these finals are going as I really tried to keep everyone happy in this tournament, but I understand getting to this point only to have it end like this is disappointing, to put it mildly.

At this point I will let alfredoallu and you work this out if you want to replay, but he will not be required to replay.

Sorry for picking this map as one of the finals, I was just trying to go in order and did not realize the trigger.

[a432]

Well alfredoallu what do you say to restarting our match? I know I would prefer a fair match, do you?(I know you are on holiday until Tuesday so I don't expect a reply until after then) We completed half of the turns within a few days I'm sure we can finish it up a full game within the required time frame.

[a432]

Well I have gotten a response It seems alfedoallu is not a "good guy" at all. Here is his response and my response.

Hello David and Andrew.

I’m traveling and will get back on the 22nd.

Sorry but I don’t agree with you Andrew.
You had the same knowledge I had about the map, as a matter of fact you did bypass one of the objectives so you could prevent me from getting the extra 1500 prestige, just like I did.

The reality is that you chose a tricky forest to conduct your main attack and also made a mistake not taking either the main and the secondary objective on the east.

Your current situation has little to do with the trigger. And you tried to use the trigger the same way I did.

You are an excellent player but this time you got outmaneuvered. You will get your chance next tournament.

Sincerely.

Alfredo


My response:

What are you talking about, please do not misdirect and lie to make yourself look better when you are denying a fair fight. You are deliberately avoiding objectives I have not done so. I have captured each objective as I am come to it. I had no knowledge of what the trigger is until I saw you bypass objectives. We can surrender the game to provide replays to prove what you say is a lie. If you have not gotten your prestige yet it is because you are defending 3 primary objectives with troops, as I eliminate those troops I would take them. I only defended two objectives because my idea was to defend at the river line. You broke through one of my defenses and now I am just defending one primary objective. The main issue is with this game is not my German game at all! I think from my German side everything is going fine, I would attack though that forest again given the chance as I have already pushed past the forest and taken the city and the airfield to its north. So please do not try to confuse people about the issue at hand the issue is not that I want a restart because my German side is doing bad I want a restart because my Russian side is doing bad because I expected reinforcements at this time. The reason why I have not received the reinforcements is because you are exploiting a trigger. The issue is with my Russian defense I always assumed you got the triggered prestige after so much time so I bought things incorrectly. My Russian defense line had expected the reinforcement trigger on turn 9 as in my practice games that is when it comes and if you would not have used the exploit it is when I would have gotten it in this game. Hell I would even say lets keep the game where I am German lets just restart the game where I am Russia, that is where the problem is.

So again Alferdo I ask for a restart to the game between us, If you think my German game is going so badly that's fine we can keep that one, I really just want the Russian game restarted knowing that the trigger is not time based but an exploitable trigger where I will never get the historical reinforcements.

Please give me and yourself a fair fight, not a victory based on an exploit. I know that is not a victory I would like.

Oh Also I thought of an alternative. If you capture the 2 objectives you are deliberately avoiding we can continue both games and it wouldn't require any restarts. You just need to retreat from one of the 3 objectives you are holding and I will trigger the reinforcements on the same turn as well for you. This way we both can get the reinforcements on the same turn and it would be fair.

[Alfredoallu]

OMG. So much drama!
I’m a private person and you will not find much about me on this forum. As many of my opponents here know. I am a cool guy when I win and accept when I’m defeated.

I learned about the trigger in my last frendly with Gwaylare, he figured it out and pointed it out to me.

Am I using that info in my game, of course I am, this is the world cup and you bring your best game.

I prefer harmony and getting along with everyone, but I will not be bullied into making a decision that will not be in my best interest.

I’m convinced Andrew knew about the trigger before he started playing and was using it against me, he offered to surrender and load replays here. So please Andrew do so and let everyone here judge by themselves.

You got outmanuvered on many levels sir.
Accept your loss and move on, it is from our losses that we learn how to be better at this game and in life.

That is precisely why I have trained with many of you here, specially with those are better than me.

[Alfredoallu]

OMG. So much drama!
I’m a private person and you will not find much about me on this forum. As many of my opponents here know. I am a cool guy when I win and accept when I’m defeated.

I learned about the trigger in my last frendly with Gwaylare, he figured it out and pointed it out to me.

Am I using that info in my game, of course I am, this is the world cup and you bring your best game.

I prefer harmony and getting along with everyone, but I will not be bullied into making a decision that will not be in my best interest.

I’m convinced Andrew knew about the trigger before he started playing and was using it against me, he offered to surrender and load replays here. So please Andrew do so and let everyone here judge by themselves.

You got outmanuvered on many levels sir.
Accept your loss and move on, it is from our losses that we learn how to be better at this game and in life.

That is precisely why I have trained with many of you here, specially with those are better than me.

[a432]

You don't learn anything when your opponent does not play fair. You only learn how dishonorable people are. How the desire to win overshadows everything even a fair and honorable fight. You only learn how people really do anything to win, and people like you alferdoallu prefer to win then to have a fair fight. Since I see clearly now exactly what kind of person you are and that you have no wish for a fair and fun fight I have surrendered the one game I have the other game is on your turn so please end so when you upload the files and everyone can judge for themselves. You truly are a disgrace to not only yourself but the people you represent.

[a432]

Here is my Russian replay.

EDIT: Here is the german now as well

[Alfredoallu]

I see no need to add anything else here.
I will finish my turn when I get back.

[Lifever]

It's though... is this the world championship? Is this just a prolonged series of games, where you lose fun when you try too hard and thereby lose everyting you can hope for in this game?

Probably something in between.

In the end it was possibly too much to ask for a real proving ground in the skill of playing this game. At the same time too much for the participants who really tried to uphold the level of fun once bs strikes..

a432 really cared for taking a high spot below 1st place. This is a quality not many people share... it's too often win all or don't care.
It's hard to lose an effort of nearly a year in the making, but it's frustrating on a whole different level to lose to a factor you can't influence.

I am no character witness for a432. I don't know him well on a private basis - obviously. I can only tell you about him that no other guy in this tournament handled defeat in a more endearing way than he has in our games.
Maybe he does himself no favours in expressing his frustration very open. Personally I like it when people open up; at least a lot more than the superficial humble approach.
So why would he start lying now?

Let's also not forget that a432 is the only guy who made it this far despite his first loss has to be called into question!

It's therefore unwarranted to spill the notion he knew about that parameter of the map he dubbed an exploit.

OMG. So much drama!

What you - Alfredo - say is that he is lying and acting like he didn't know to get a second chance.
He on the contrary didn't call you anything, except a person who is fine with using an asymmetry to his advantage.
That seems to be the case. So where's the drama?

You got outmanuvered on many levels sir.

Please be authentic enough to just say "I knew some hidden mechanic about the map my opponent did apparantly not know about. I won by a technicality. That's fine by me. Too bad for him. I don't care."
Spare yourself the notion that the other guy is suddenly lying. That's what the "cool guy" does.

[a432]

Please be authentic enough to just say "I knew some hidden mechanic about the map my opponent did apparantly not know about. I won by a technicality. That's fine by me. Too bad for him. I don't care."
Spare yourself the notion that the other guy is suddenly lying. That's what the "cool guy" does.

Exactly my point. Alfredo stop the act and own up to your own actions. Stop trying to say others are lying when everyone can clearly see that the only one giving misdirection is you. Cool guys don't act like you have acted.

I'm actually happy that out of my 3 losses two were to known exploiters of the game. Rishat a known exploiter and eventually removed from the tournament, Alfredo a known exploiter and not a "cool guy", and last Lifever who still may be the champ especially since his opponent won't be able to exploit like Alfredo has done. Glad I was able to step on that landmine.

[Hansstory]

Looking at the game I am playing on Kursk, there is no way for the German to win if he doesn't game that mechanic. You can't overcome 25 extra conscripts for the Russian. Unless you are Lifever! Thus, if you don't know about the mechanic, you will lose. Really too bad we ran into this problem. If it wasn't mentioned in the briefing, how are we to know about it?

[goose_2]

Nobody said the Germans had to win in order to win the match, you just have to do better than your opponent.

I apologize for not knowing about the map trigger, but I am not the programmer of these maps, just an interested player who tried to set up a fun Tournament for people to enjoy.

I am sorry that the fun of playing this game seems to be being lost in the playing of this contest, maybe that couldn't be avoided, but I tried.

Please if there are any triggers for Gustav Line, please post them here as this will be the next map, and I am unfamiliar with looking up code.

I would love to get an update on the other 2 matches that are being played if Lifever or Gwaylare have any insight on the progress of their game as well as the progress of woken vs Signum...I am still hopeful that we may be able to wrap this one up in 2018...crazy as that sounds...

[Lifever]

I apologize [...]
I am sorry [...]

Don't be. I think no matter what differences or negativity comes up (and yeah, may be unavoidable to some extent in every contest) we can all agree that you don't need to be sorry for anything. (You know... unlike Alfredoallu.)
You made a tournament to extend the multiplayer playerbase of the game and in that you succeded. Everything else has to be determined and thought through in the future.
No more sorry-crap... You did good. The guys responsible for the shape of these maps for mp should be sorry and fired regardless... that's a given... how about that as a New Years resolution? Slitherine, Lordz Games - Assume the position!

On the matchup: Gwaylare wanted to start on sunday. Then I postponed him, because I suspect he has some crazy rng ritual going on that only works in correlation to a lot of obscure factors around the world. The reflection of the moon on the first snow this winter will tell me the precise time to strike...
(We will get it done.)

What's the record for axis win here?

[goose_2]

What's the record for axis win here?

That is the kind of confidence and bravado, I have been waiting to see from you again.

Thanks for the laugh

[Kerensky]

I'm an ignorant observer with no context. Can someone explain the map and exploit in question? Thread is too big to try and navigate.

[Kerensky]

The trigger is documented within the editor. So I agree with you, that maps with a trigger are a problem for multiplayer. You know about it or you do not. But if you know it, you cannot ignore it. Whenever something is triggered in a Panzer Corps map, this is done by a script and everything is visible in the editor.

Nevermind, I found the source of this contention.

I'm surprised you are using such maps in a tournament setting.

For what it's worth, I agree that's a really bad trigger that is ripe for abuse. There's no message pop ups at any point , before, during or after. No warning for what will trigger during gameplay, and no message to state that it's actually taken effect. But that map wasn't really designed for multiplayer, and certainly not for extremely serious high level tournament play. That's an AI trigger. And the AI doesn't need messages or any of those prompts to function. It gets its resource injection and applies it. Similarly, the German player never sees the triggers. No normal player will refrain from capturing flags to avoid triggers, that's the behavior of someone who knows such triggers exist. I'm not going to call that kind of behavior exploitative or abusive, it's the kind of behavior that is expected of highest level players who are min/maxing every advantage in a proper and serious tournament setting. Anything less degrades the significance of the tournament and just turns it into playing for fun and goofing around while not taking it super serious.

It's up to the scenario creators to keep these facets in mind. That's why a lot of purpose built Panzer Corps Multiplayer maps are riddled with pop up messages and extra information. And why they also don't contain hidden triggers that can only be discovered by opening up the editor. No reason to malign or fault the maker of that Kursk map though, because their goal wasn't really to make a tournament level map. As I recall, that particular map is a 1st generation all purpose Panzer Corps map. Meaning it's a campaign battle, solo scenario, and multiplayer map all rolled into one to be shipped with 1.0 release. But that level of generalization is going to suffer against the ultra high level specialization required of maps involved in tournament play.

I'm sure there are reasons to use maps outside of the clearly marked (balanced) section and opt for historical (unbalanced) scenarios. Just keep in mind this is why they are marked as such though!

Definitely some lessons here to keep in mind for Panzer Corps II. Only reinforces the need for purpose built content that can stand up to the highest levels of scrutiny and min/max styles that tournament level play can and will generate from players.