Afrika Korps army composition
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Afrika Korps army composition
I played through AK on "General" difficulty. While this might differ on higher difficulty level, I found that the usual "loads of tanks" strategy doesn't cut it anymore, especially beyond Egypt.
Some observations:
1. Infantry
Wehrmacht infantry isn't as effective in the desert. Because of desert movement penalties, it has a movement of 2, and due to how roundings are done, Heavy Weapons and Pioniere Infantry has a flat desert move of 2 as well. 2-move infantry with +1 movement hero will still be able to move only 2 hexes, except on roads and railroads.
Mountain infantry is at a unique disadvantage as sand dunes are not classified as "hills". There are 2 maps that profit from Bridge Engineers, so I'd keep one unit around if prestige allows.
Desert terrain still offers plenty of opportunity to use close terrain, namely unnamed villages and desert dunes. My suggestion is to rely heavily on Kradschützen + Nebelwerfer for all close terrain encounters, to match the needs of open desert warfare.
2. Anti tank guns
Again, in Afrika Corps, anti-tank is a waste of core slots.
Rationale: On paper, AT looks okay - a cheaper alternative to tanks that has decent intiative and hard attack. But Middle East is not Russia. Here, armor is not king, it's just a shield. Most real fighting in AK happens in the air and while attacking entrenched positions that are mostly soft targets. The main disdavantage of AT guns is not even the weak soft attack, but weak armor. When attacking hard targets without suppressive fire, it's impossible to guarantee a no-retaliation end of turn. If AT guns cannot hold their own on the front line, which they can't they are useless. Due to heavy entrenchment on many maps, I suggest (as seen below) having 8 core artillery pieces. Even with that high amount of artillery, it's pretty hard to find shots to spare. 88 guns excel both at AA and AT roles and having two of these is actually quite enough. The really good AT guns (JagdPanther) are actually quite expensive. For the 30% increase in price to Tiger 2, I'll gladly pay for the higher armor and soft attack.
3. Air combat
Air combat is deadly. The RAF is on par with Luftwaffe and most maps have scripted waves of air attacks coming from outside the map. On top of this, many maps feature "sneak attacks" from behind or the sides, sometimes escorted by air units. Having 6 or even 8 fighter planes is not enough to fully cover 3-4 different combat zones at the same time. Also, on many maps there isn't much room: minefields, ridges, mountains don't allow for a wide front or easy flanking maneuvers. You simply cannot guarantee you'll have enough fighters to cover both your core and 3 units that are performing a flanking maneuver.
I suggest having at 4 AA guns, 2 towed, 2 mobile. They never become obsolete because you can never be sure when the next wave of air attacks will trigger.
Fighter/Bombers (BF110s etc.) perform rather poorly in AK for the same reason AT guns suffer - they need artillery support. Due to RAF power, they can't fly unescorted, they are quite expensive to overstrength and many British units have inherent AA (tanks, HW inf. etc). I found their Air Attack to be of pretty limited use.
- Italian units, with the exception of Piaggio Strat Bomber, are inferior. If not going for historical accuracy, I'd disband all Italian units at after first scenario and keep the 1 fighter and 2 self-propelled artillery you get for free.
The upper limit for deployment is incremental, ending at 40 units at On Road to India. I suggest creating two army groups of up to 20 units each, plus SE units that can serve as a special task force.
I find the optimal army composition is 14 land units and 6 air units, divided in the following fashion.
14 land units:
2 medium tanks
1 heavy tank
4 infantry (2 Kradschutzen, 1 Heavy Infantry, 1 Pioneer)
4 artillery (1 towed rocket launcher, 1 nebelwerfer, 1 towed 3-range gun, 1 italian self-propelled artillery)
1 88mm towed AA/AT gun
1 self-propelled AA gun
1 Sd.Kfz. 232 8-Rad
6 air units:
3 fighters (2 with higher initiative, 1 with higher attack)
1 Ju-78 (D) strat bomber
1 Piaggio tactical bomber
Total at India without SE:
6 tanks
8 infantry
8 artillery
4 AA
2 recon
6 fighters
2 tac. bombers
1 strat. bomber
SE units:
obviously the compositon of SE units will vary, but a 2/3 or 3/2 split is quite reasonable to expect:
- all tanks to heavy tanks (eventually Bengal Tigers)
- all tactical bombers to Ju-78 G
- all fighters to highest initiative available fighter (usually BF109 variants)
***
Building up the core:
My priorities in building the core would be the following:
Artillery > Infantry > AA> Tanks > Tactical Bombers > Fighters > Strat Bombers > Recon
Overstrenght suggestions:
AA > Tactical Bombers > Artillery > Infantry > SE tanks > Strat Bombers
My suggestion is NOT to overstrength:
- fighters
- non-heavy tanks (no OS at all until Tiger).
- recon
Tank upgrade paths:
All new tanks I'd buy are Panzer IVs. Panzer III can't tackle British armor anyway, that's best left to stukas and HW inf.
Upgrade all tanks to Panzer IVG when available.
Tanks with +1 move heroes receive Tigers, tanks without receive Panthers.
Artillery upgrade paths:
All artillery pieces with +1 range become towed 21-cm.
All artillery pieces with +1 move become towed rocket launchers.
Some observations:
1. Infantry
Wehrmacht infantry isn't as effective in the desert. Because of desert movement penalties, it has a movement of 2, and due to how roundings are done, Heavy Weapons and Pioniere Infantry has a flat desert move of 2 as well. 2-move infantry with +1 movement hero will still be able to move only 2 hexes, except on roads and railroads.
Mountain infantry is at a unique disadvantage as sand dunes are not classified as "hills". There are 2 maps that profit from Bridge Engineers, so I'd keep one unit around if prestige allows.
Desert terrain still offers plenty of opportunity to use close terrain, namely unnamed villages and desert dunes. My suggestion is to rely heavily on Kradschützen + Nebelwerfer for all close terrain encounters, to match the needs of open desert warfare.
2. Anti tank guns
Again, in Afrika Corps, anti-tank is a waste of core slots.
Rationale: On paper, AT looks okay - a cheaper alternative to tanks that has decent intiative and hard attack. But Middle East is not Russia. Here, armor is not king, it's just a shield. Most real fighting in AK happens in the air and while attacking entrenched positions that are mostly soft targets. The main disdavantage of AT guns is not even the weak soft attack, but weak armor. When attacking hard targets without suppressive fire, it's impossible to guarantee a no-retaliation end of turn. If AT guns cannot hold their own on the front line, which they can't they are useless. Due to heavy entrenchment on many maps, I suggest (as seen below) having 8 core artillery pieces. Even with that high amount of artillery, it's pretty hard to find shots to spare. 88 guns excel both at AA and AT roles and having two of these is actually quite enough. The really good AT guns (JagdPanther) are actually quite expensive. For the 30% increase in price to Tiger 2, I'll gladly pay for the higher armor and soft attack.
3. Air combat
Air combat is deadly. The RAF is on par with Luftwaffe and most maps have scripted waves of air attacks coming from outside the map. On top of this, many maps feature "sneak attacks" from behind or the sides, sometimes escorted by air units. Having 6 or even 8 fighter planes is not enough to fully cover 3-4 different combat zones at the same time. Also, on many maps there isn't much room: minefields, ridges, mountains don't allow for a wide front or easy flanking maneuvers. You simply cannot guarantee you'll have enough fighters to cover both your core and 3 units that are performing a flanking maneuver.
I suggest having at 4 AA guns, 2 towed, 2 mobile. They never become obsolete because you can never be sure when the next wave of air attacks will trigger.
Fighter/Bombers (BF110s etc.) perform rather poorly in AK for the same reason AT guns suffer - they need artillery support. Due to RAF power, they can't fly unescorted, they are quite expensive to overstrength and many British units have inherent AA (tanks, HW inf. etc). I found their Air Attack to be of pretty limited use.
- Italian units, with the exception of Piaggio Strat Bomber, are inferior. If not going for historical accuracy, I'd disband all Italian units at after first scenario and keep the 1 fighter and 2 self-propelled artillery you get for free.
The upper limit for deployment is incremental, ending at 40 units at On Road to India. I suggest creating two army groups of up to 20 units each, plus SE units that can serve as a special task force.
I find the optimal army composition is 14 land units and 6 air units, divided in the following fashion.
14 land units:
2 medium tanks
1 heavy tank
4 infantry (2 Kradschutzen, 1 Heavy Infantry, 1 Pioneer)
4 artillery (1 towed rocket launcher, 1 nebelwerfer, 1 towed 3-range gun, 1 italian self-propelled artillery)
1 88mm towed AA/AT gun
1 self-propelled AA gun
1 Sd.Kfz. 232 8-Rad
6 air units:
3 fighters (2 with higher initiative, 1 with higher attack)
1 Ju-78 (D) strat bomber
1 Piaggio tactical bomber
Total at India without SE:
6 tanks
8 infantry
8 artillery
4 AA
2 recon
6 fighters
2 tac. bombers
1 strat. bomber
SE units:
obviously the compositon of SE units will vary, but a 2/3 or 3/2 split is quite reasonable to expect:
- all tanks to heavy tanks (eventually Bengal Tigers)
- all tactical bombers to Ju-78 G
- all fighters to highest initiative available fighter (usually BF109 variants)
***
Building up the core:
My priorities in building the core would be the following:
Artillery > Infantry > AA> Tanks > Tactical Bombers > Fighters > Strat Bombers > Recon
Overstrenght suggestions:
AA > Tactical Bombers > Artillery > Infantry > SE tanks > Strat Bombers
My suggestion is NOT to overstrength:
- fighters
- non-heavy tanks (no OS at all until Tiger).
- recon
Tank upgrade paths:
All new tanks I'd buy are Panzer IVs. Panzer III can't tackle British armor anyway, that's best left to stukas and HW inf.
Upgrade all tanks to Panzer IVG when available.
Tanks with +1 move heroes receive Tigers, tanks without receive Panthers.
Artillery upgrade paths:
All artillery pieces with +1 range become towed 21-cm.
All artillery pieces with +1 move become towed rocket launchers.
Last edited by Kirby on Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Afrika Korps army composition
Good observations.
When playing Germany in general I've found tanks to be markedly superior to anti-tanks in all respects, to the point where I don't bother getting a single one. They're priced too closely to not just get the tank which is much more versatile, with more ammo to boot.
I'm not ashamed to admit to reloading the last autosave in order to get that SE Panzer IV and BF-109. I just make sure I don't make any action different if I'm last to act.
When playing Germany in general I've found tanks to be markedly superior to anti-tanks in all respects, to the point where I don't bother getting a single one. They're priced too closely to not just get the tank which is much more versatile, with more ammo to boot.
I'm not ashamed to admit to reloading the last autosave in order to get that SE Panzer IV and BF-109. I just make sure I don't make any action different if I'm last to act.
Re: Afrika Korps army composition
Thanks, OP for the informative post. I'm looking forward to playing AK and it's useful advice.
I don't have the patience for towed ATs but in GC East, I field a few AT units when the StugIIIF becomes available. You get a good gun a little earlier on an AT unit than the tank equivalent.
An Elephant at Kursk is surprisingly useful (including scenarios thereafter) and characterful. Its got slow, has low ammo and attracts infantry, but Soviet tanks shy away from it and it can pack a punch.
The StugIV with a switchable artillery mode is a fun unit and good for levelling up an AT. But they do die quickly to Soviet tanks so I switch them to jagdpanthers when they get enough XP that it hurts to lose them.
A selling point of AT units is that they get +2 HA per level, compared to +1 HA for tanks. So high experience Jagdpanthers are robust killers and keepers. They are not particularly cheap, however, so your point remains!
I try not to buy too many Tiger I and IIs, as they almost seem to break the game.
You may have a point: I read somewhere that the cost of a German assault gun was a third of an equivalent tank, although that figure seems too striking to be true.huckc wrote:When playing Germany in general I've found tanks to be markedly superior to anti-tanks in all respects, to the point where I don't bother getting a single one. They're priced too closely to not just get the tank which is much more versatile, with more ammo to boot.
I don't have the patience for towed ATs but in GC East, I field a few AT units when the StugIIIF becomes available. You get a good gun a little earlier on an AT unit than the tank equivalent.
An Elephant at Kursk is surprisingly useful (including scenarios thereafter) and characterful. Its got slow, has low ammo and attracts infantry, but Soviet tanks shy away from it and it can pack a punch.
The StugIV with a switchable artillery mode is a fun unit and good for levelling up an AT. But they do die quickly to Soviet tanks so I switch them to jagdpanthers when they get enough XP that it hurts to lose them.
A selling point of AT units is that they get +2 HA per level, compared to +1 HA for tanks. So high experience Jagdpanthers are robust killers and keepers. They are not particularly cheap, however, so your point remains!
I try not to buy too many Tiger I and IIs, as they almost seem to break the game.
Last edited by econ21 on Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Afrika Korps army composition
The only AT I ever bothered with was the Elefant, and that was at Bagration in the original game (I'm still playing through the GC, and they aren't available yet). After getting a hammering a couple of times at Bagration, I retreated and formed a line of Tigers and Elefants and let the Russian units band their heads on it until they were gone (the Russian units that is!). The Elefant is a great defensive unit, with enough mobility to be useful later on.
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Re: Afrika Korps army composition
I an usually find a good use for a Stug or two with 3 or more stars and a 3* Elefant is good, but generally AT appears very over-priced, especially when you look at the poor upgrade paths. Having said that, the 50 Pak can be quite useful early on in AK and then can be retired until Stug or Elefant comes along.
Re: Afrika Korps army composition
Edited the OP for clairty.
The StuG is the first AT that can actually hold it's own in enemy turn, but again, its use is limited. AK maps are very well made, and they require a really tidy end of turn. I don't trust AT guns to hold the line.
The StuG is the first AT that can actually hold it's own in enemy turn, but again, its use is limited. AK maps are very well made, and they require a really tidy end of turn. I don't trust AT guns to hold the line.
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Re: Afrika Korps army composition
We all have our favorite composition and I guess Im one of the conservative players that sticks to his own strategy and core composition - until proven wrong .
But will keep some of your suggestions in mind while battling North Afrika :
I differ from the view that AK is different from the Russia campagn as to the tank-battles: quite opposite - both (wide open) terrains are ideally suited for tankbattles - in contrast to infantry battles.
Until the Tobruk campaigns I thought my 2 AT/PAK 38's were quite usefull in dealing with the Mathildas, steadily adding up in experience, but it all depended on carefull planning / placement, to be able to attack just at the right moment with the 1-movement. I admit, I was very lucky in several occasions. But I replaced them for StuGIII's ASAP. I stick to 3 core slots for AT.
For infantry I stick to combination of Fallschirmjager and Grenadiere - having reached the Suez-canal I have three infrantry.
I sell ALL Italian units in favor of German units that can upgrade and collect experience.
Yes AK is about air supremecy, but that is for ALL campaigns in my opinion - and yes, the offmap spawning of Spitfires attacking are frustrating. Just like the way my 2star Me.109G can only fight a Spitfire Mk.V with maximum loss. The way a Wellington takes 4 Me.109 attacks before being downed (or even escaping with 1 point left) is more than frustrating .
I have 2 Me.110s but experience the same: too vulnerable to keep...
Keep 2 Pz.III until Mk.IVG appears, until then Mk.IIIH/J is best German armour available for Allied armour.
Artillery with +range: suggest Wurfrahmen for deadly infantry attacks.
I dont have a general rule for overstrengthening or not, but let it depend on specific unit - I have a recon with +D2+S2 - it ALWAYS receives 2 overstrenght.
Same applies to my +D2 Ju.87. Use only overstrength for infantry designated to certain difficult battle in cities.
But will keep some of your suggestions in mind while battling North Afrika :
I differ from the view that AK is different from the Russia campagn as to the tank-battles: quite opposite - both (wide open) terrains are ideally suited for tankbattles - in contrast to infantry battles.
Until the Tobruk campaigns I thought my 2 AT/PAK 38's were quite usefull in dealing with the Mathildas, steadily adding up in experience, but it all depended on carefull planning / placement, to be able to attack just at the right moment with the 1-movement. I admit, I was very lucky in several occasions. But I replaced them for StuGIII's ASAP. I stick to 3 core slots for AT.
For infantry I stick to combination of Fallschirmjager and Grenadiere - having reached the Suez-canal I have three infrantry.
I sell ALL Italian units in favor of German units that can upgrade and collect experience.
Yes AK is about air supremecy, but that is for ALL campaigns in my opinion - and yes, the offmap spawning of Spitfires attacking are frustrating. Just like the way my 2star Me.109G can only fight a Spitfire Mk.V with maximum loss. The way a Wellington takes 4 Me.109 attacks before being downed (or even escaping with 1 point left) is more than frustrating .
I have 2 Me.110s but experience the same: too vulnerable to keep...
Keep 2 Pz.III until Mk.IVG appears, until then Mk.IIIH/J is best German armour available for Allied armour.
Artillery with +range: suggest Wurfrahmen for deadly infantry attacks.
I dont have a general rule for overstrengthening or not, but let it depend on specific unit - I have a recon with +D2+S2 - it ALWAYS receives 2 overstrenght.
Same applies to my +D2 Ju.87. Use only overstrength for infantry designated to certain difficult battle in cities.
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Re: Afrika Korps army composition
I often incorporate an 88 and a mobile AA unit in AK because allied air power is otherwise hard (and expensive) to wear down. These are mostly to deter attacks on expensive or vulnerable ground units, but also to pick off overstrength from allied air units and weaken them enough for the fighters and 110s to finish them off.
Ground forces - typically three tanks (2IVs and a III), the 8 rad recon, and a Stug B, two HW and usually a gebirgs, infantry or pioneer. I don't like the low ammo of paras, but I see why others like them. The rest will be three or four 105s (a 170 when available), a towed Pak50 in training to become a Stug, one or two AA as mentioned above and a small airforce (eg 110, Do2017 and two fighters).
As for Wellingtons, they seem to have the Defensive stats of a strategic bomber with the offensive stats of a tac bomber. It seems odd as I consider them as strat bombers. The UK already has very good Tac bombers with offensive capabilities (Beaufighter, mossies, and the Hurribomber and typhoon). I'd have preferred to see Wellingtons as strat bombers in place of Lancasters in North Africa, since their strength was that they didn't need quite the same level of airfield preparation as full on four-engined heavy bombers, and so could be operated from lower standard airstrips. This could have been dealt with by using the theatre settings to limit use of four-engined bombers in N Africa so that the Wellington then becomes the go-to plane until the Allies take over the airfields in Sicily.
Ground forces - typically three tanks (2IVs and a III), the 8 rad recon, and a Stug B, two HW and usually a gebirgs, infantry or pioneer. I don't like the low ammo of paras, but I see why others like them. The rest will be three or four 105s (a 170 when available), a towed Pak50 in training to become a Stug, one or two AA as mentioned above and a small airforce (eg 110, Do2017 and two fighters).
As for Wellingtons, they seem to have the Defensive stats of a strategic bomber with the offensive stats of a tac bomber. It seems odd as I consider them as strat bombers. The UK already has very good Tac bombers with offensive capabilities (Beaufighter, mossies, and the Hurribomber and typhoon). I'd have preferred to see Wellingtons as strat bombers in place of Lancasters in North Africa, since their strength was that they didn't need quite the same level of airfield preparation as full on four-engined heavy bombers, and so could be operated from lower standard airstrips. This could have been dealt with by using the theatre settings to limit use of four-engined bombers in N Africa so that the Wellington then becomes the go-to plane until the Allies take over the airfields in Sicily.
Re: Afrika Korps army composition
There is no doubt there are numerous tank battles in AK. In my experience, encounters with enemy armor most often fall into these three categories:ptje63 wrote:I differ from the view that AK is different from the Russia campagn as to the tank-battles: quite opposite - both (wide open) terrains are ideally suited for tankbattles - in contrast to infantry battles.
- an armored unit protecting someting (usually a Churchill variant)
- a group of 3-8 armored units waiting/hiding to perform a flanking maneouvre
- a scripted counterattack
The best way, I've learned, to preserve core units and overstreght, is simply to be out of sight. Especially at end of turn. Failing that, I must provide each unit with both AA and artillery cover. I call this "Clean end of turn" (obviously I can't account for pillboxes, forts or roaming scouts out of sight, but I do what I can).
AK differs from Russia in two significant ways: first, there are no rivers, except on select maps, that can be used to choke enemy counterattacks. Second, RAF will merrily shoot down both your fighters and bombers if you adopt the usual "air strikes first" strategy.
For this reason, I concentrate my forces in two, maximum of three battle groups, and keep them tightly packed; the front line covered by artillery, artillery by AA. Then, I concentrate all my forces on either the enemy armored column or strongpoint and try to wipe it out completely so it stops providing Line of Sight. For this method to work, I often employ up to 6 artillery pieces, 3 AA and most of my available airforce for a single push. Once the intial defenses and RAF are broken (usually by turn 4-7), I can proceed by attacking 2-3 targets simultaneously, but still trying to wipe out the enemy forces completely. I will often delay a push by a turn or two just to have everything in place.
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Re: Afrika Korps army composition
Thanks a lot for posting this, Kirby. I'm relatively new to the game and had been having difficulty with AK. Will give it another try.
Re: Afrika Korps army composition
I played through AK again, this time with my suggested core setup.
Everything felt spot-on, except I'd take 2 Panzer II Flamm tanks instead of 1 HW infantry and 1 recon.
Having 3-4 AA units definitely a must.
The two italian SP artillery pieces we get for free are actually pretty powerful, especially when upgraded, but the range of 2 is really hurting. Although the heroes are nice (one +5 attack, other +1 move), I'd still probably want the self-propelled 3-range German gun, as I already have four 2-range guns in my setup.
Everything felt spot-on, except I'd take 2 Panzer II Flamm tanks instead of 1 HW infantry and 1 recon.
Having 3-4 AA units definitely a must.
The two italian SP artillery pieces we get for free are actually pretty powerful, especially when upgraded, but the range of 2 is really hurting. Although the heroes are nice (one +5 attack, other +1 move), I'd still probably want the self-propelled 3-range German gun, as I already have four 2-range guns in my setup.
Re: Afrika Korps army composition
No Love for the Italians here
Let me tell you one Thing.
The Italian Stuff is Good enough to go through the whole Afrika Campaign on Rommel and Field Marshall with a Decisive Victory in Every Scenario without using any German Unit (and that includes immediate Disband of all SE Units) except Scenario #1. And the only reason you have to use the German Units in this One is cause you have no Deployment Phase to cash in the Prestige you get for Selling them.
You can win the Afrika Campaign on Guderian German free as well, but it will be hard to go All Decisive on this Level. Especially in the Kaukasus you Need a Break in Not getting Sotschi as the last Victory Hex.
Have Not tried Manstein in German free Mode, but I can imagine Players like braccada or goose can do it for sure.
Let me tell you one Thing.
The Italian Stuff is Good enough to go through the whole Afrika Campaign on Rommel and Field Marshall with a Decisive Victory in Every Scenario without using any German Unit (and that includes immediate Disband of all SE Units) except Scenario #1. And the only reason you have to use the German Units in this One is cause you have no Deployment Phase to cash in the Prestige you get for Selling them.
You can win the Afrika Campaign on Guderian German free as well, but it will be hard to go All Decisive on this Level. Especially in the Kaukasus you Need a Break in Not getting Sotschi as the last Victory Hex.
Have Not tried Manstein in German free Mode, but I can imagine Players like braccada or goose can do it for sure.
Last edited by hurly on Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Afrika Korps army composition
Hurly is the greatest resource on anything Afrika Korps.hurly wrote:
Have Not tried Manstein in German free Mode, but I can imagine Players like braccada or goose can do it for sure.
I take his challenge as a gauntlet thrown, but unsure when I will get time to pick that one up, enjoying Grand Campaign too much
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Re: Afrika Korps army composition
goose_2 wrote:Hurly is the greatest resource on anything Afrika Korps.hurly wrote:
Have Not tried Manstein in German free Mode, but I can imagine Players like braccada or goose can do it for sure.
as you can see in many postings around here goose is a great Panzer Corpse Commander and an All Around Nice Guy but his evaluation skills for real people and their knowledge are highly questionable
Re: Afrika Korps army composition
Of course it is doable. However, German units are superior in every way, not just because of individual units, but because of variety. If someone is willing to do a writeup on an all-italian army comp, I'd be happy to test it out.hurly wrote:The Italian Stuff is Good enough to go through the whole Afrika Campaign on Rommel and Field Marshall with a Decisive Victory in Every Scenario without using any German Unit (and that includes immediate Disband of all SE Units) except Scenario #1.
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Re: Afrika Korps army composition
Good on Hurly and Goose_2 for setting a great target. That level of challenge is a bit beyond my ability to play for fun - and quite possibly beyond my ability to play at all - for the moment.
For those wanting an all Italian experience that is a bit less demanding, Nico's Italian Corps (which leads into AK) is pretty good fun. You have the advantage that you have some Italian units with a star or two and maybe a hero by the time you get to the opening AK scenario. If you load in Nico's equpment file you can get Italian SE units and slightly better aircraft which means you don't need the German SE units.
For those wanting an all Italian experience that is a bit less demanding, Nico's Italian Corps (which leads into AK) is pretty good fun. You have the advantage that you have some Italian units with a star or two and maybe a hero by the time you get to the opening AK scenario. If you load in Nico's equpment file you can get Italian SE units and slightly better aircraft which means you don't need the German SE units.
Re: Afrika Korps army composition
ah come on especially you and your penchant for Strat Bombers and forcing Surrenders will love the All-Italian Afrikan Campaigncaptainjack wrote:Good on Hurly and Goose_2 for setting a great target. That level of challenge is a bit beyond my ability to play for fun - and quite possibly beyond my ability to play at all - for the moment.
For those wanting an all Italian experience that is a bit less demanding, Nico's Italian Corps (which leads into AK) is pretty good fun. You have the advantage that you have some Italian units with a star or two and maybe a hero by the time you get to the opening AK scenario. If you load in Nico's equpment file you can get Italian SE units and slightly better aircraft which means you don't need the German SE units.
Even though I seem to come over as a mixture of Pizza Chain Owner and Tifosi (Italian Soccer fans) I'm just amazed how underrated and undervalued the Italian Stuff is seen here. And I might add that's to a certain degree true for me as well even after several Italian Challenges and now a few All-Italian Runs.
It's more of a challenge to find a different approach to the Campaign just like you have to do in US Corps or Allied Corps. Every Faction has its (sometimes unique) strenghts and weaknesses.
Btw US Corps and its variation in tactics is great example here. You can't go out there with the US Units and go head to head with the German Tanks and most of the time not even the German Luftwaffe. But you can rely on great Artillery Units, Strat Bombers and quite good Tac Bombers a lot more than with the German Stuff.
I mean everyone here is yearning for new "official" Content for Panzer Corps which will most likely never come and on the other side you have a free Italian Campaign in Afrika Korps and nobody is really embracing the opportunity.
Yeah going All-Italian is a bit different, needs a bit more finesse instead of the German Jackhammer approach, but it is not much harder to do than the Afrika Vanilla Korps Campaign and I can say that for all Difficulty Levels except Manstein cause I never tackled it on any Content in the Panzer Corps Realm.
I would also strongly disagree to lump all Italian Units together as inferior to German Units, just take some time and look up Costs for Italian Stuff and the Costs for similarly prized German Stuff. You will be amazed how close units are then with a little bargain edge for the Italian Units. And of course there are a few Gems in the Arsenal that don't have to take a backseat to any German Unit namely the Strat Bomber, Towed Arty, the towed AA, the Recons especially the Sahariana which is a Bersaglieri with a Recon Drive and reasonably Fighting Ability in Car Mide to boot) Mobile Arty is Great maybe even better than the German Stuff as you get a 2 Range Stug/Brummbär or a less effective Wurfrahmen with Stug like Defensive Abilities (depends on from which side you look at it) and of course the SM79 Tac Bomber which you can view as a Stuka with better Range, Sea Attack and Defence or as Bf 110 without the Active Air Attack but better Range (for most of the Campaign) and Bomb Attack (maybe not on paper, but the results speak for itself and one thing we learned from using the Flamm -- Face Values do not tell you the whole story all the time) and certainly a much better Price. Even Infantry is on par with German Units (alpini are even to Gebirgsjäger and Bersaglieri are better than German Infantry or more mobile than Grenadiers at a similar or better prize) up to the Big 1943 Switch. So tanks and especially Mobile AT (due to the Timeline) are the 2 Problem Areas here
If you look at the Italian Stuff more pragmatic the main reason for the "feeled" Inferiority is the Timeline. Italian Stuff that is close or on Par with the German Stuff is always a tad late, but I personally think they make it up with good in-Family compatibilty and a Nice Price (sometimes these late coming stuff is a lot cheaper in Regular Price and even more in side costs, e. G. the 88 Clone is 10 Prestige cheaper but does not need a halftrack Transport which is another 20 Bucks more than a Truck, Tanks and Fighters often are more than a hundred Prestige less than comparable German Units)
It's certainly true there are not as many variations and innovations as in the German Arsenal and the Line of New Italian Stuff basically ends in mid 1943, but that's not a big Problem in Afrika Korps as the Final Battle here happens on D-Day in 1944 and you get the Option of Italian Panthers, Brummbär (in Family !) Bf109 K and the HS129 in the closing stages. So you do not see any of the German Wunderwaffen either and the Tiger 2 (to name one of the major Boss Units) is available only for the last Scenario, where you face the fact you can't either afford it at all (and if so it's questionable if the High Price is justified for just one Battle, there are other Improvements possible that may help a lot more) and to boot it's not really that great here due to the landscape and slow speed.
So my recommendation for Going in All Italian or to a lesser Degree "Italian Challenge" is to embrace the Fun, learn the In's and Out's and you will be amazed how smooth things work out for you.
I see that many Users voted for Afrika Korps to be their fav Campaign, so guys don't miss out on spicing up your favourite Campaign with a little Flavour, just because you are used to German Units and don't want to adjust your playing style.
Most of you did or do anyway not only because of a learning curve in the Game overall, but you certainly do it for Allied Corps, Soviet Corps and US Corps and maybe even Grand Campaign West or Operation Sealion as well.
I think for Afrika Korps you basically get a free Campaign that inherits lots of fun and satisfaction. You just need to embrace it with an Open Mind
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Re: Afrika Korps army composition
I couldn't agree more.
Italian Corps is nteresting because you have to think - the alpini are slightly better than the German Gebirgsjager, the Bersaglieri are about the best 3 move infanry around before 1943, the Sahariana (with a 43 upgrade from Nico's files) are very handy and the 149mm is very handy. And the tanks are no worse than the German ones against soft targets while the fighters and strat bombers are about as good. And whetever you lose in performance of tanks and lack of halftracks pays back in lower cost.
Same with US Corps, your tanks are very good against soft targets, but you have to find a way to take out the hard targets.
The different mix of strengths and weaknesses and other self-imposed challenges is what keeps me playing and developing a growing pile of (half-finished) mods.
Italian Corps is nteresting because you have to think - the alpini are slightly better than the German Gebirgsjager, the Bersaglieri are about the best 3 move infanry around before 1943, the Sahariana (with a 43 upgrade from Nico's files) are very handy and the 149mm is very handy. And the tanks are no worse than the German ones against soft targets while the fighters and strat bombers are about as good. And whetever you lose in performance of tanks and lack of halftracks pays back in lower cost.
Same with US Corps, your tanks are very good against soft targets, but you have to find a way to take out the hard targets.
The different mix of strengths and weaknesses and other self-imposed challenges is what keeps me playing and developing a growing pile of (half-finished) mods.
Re: Afrika Korps army composition
Just finished AK on Mastein last night. I had to settle for a lot of MVs and had to replay India a couple of times to get a DV. I found some of the early senarios to be some of the most difficult until you could buy the right core and get some experience.
As far as army composition, I ended up using a lot of AA (4 mobile and one 88) since trying to gain air superiority with fighters would take all my prestige. I carried 3 strategic bombers, 3 Stukas, lots of artillery, lots of tanks and very little infantry and only 4 fighters.
As far as army composition, I ended up using a lot of AA (4 mobile and one 88) since trying to gain air superiority with fighters would take all my prestige. I carried 3 strategic bombers, 3 Stukas, lots of artillery, lots of tanks and very little infantry and only 4 fighters.